Drinking in Moderation: Sip Less, Enjoy More

Here at Club Soda, we support all drinking goals. Whether you want to wait, take a break, or find ways to enjoy drinking in moderation, we're here to help. In this episode, Chase Lee, Caitlin Padgett, and Sam Thonis share their experiences of moderating.


Who are Chase, Caitlin, and Sam?

Chase Lee is the founder of podcast Stone Cold Moderation, which offers practical advice to help you foster a healthier relationship with alcohol. Caitlin Padgett is a transformational coach and the author of Drink Less Be More. And Sam Thonis is the founder of The Get Away Bar.

Our guests talking about how they found their feet with drinking in moderation. They share tips and ideas for finding your own framework. Of course, moderation isn't for everyone, but it does work well for some. The main thing is to make sure that you create your own set of rules, and figure out what's right for you.


Top tips for drinking in moderation

Caitlin suggests starting with a break, but going deeper and really considering your relationship with alcohol. This is something our courses can guide you through. When you put in the work to explore your behaviour, you can really get stuck in and create lasting change for yourself.

Chase sets himself a rule of three. If he is enjoying a drink at a social occasion, he sets a maximum of three drinks within that 24 hour window. 

Sam likes to start the night with a non-alcoholic drink, which gives him chance to settle into the social situation. This gives him time to decide whether he actually wants to have an alcoholic drink, or whether he's happy to continue with a delicious alcohol-free option.

And our very own Dru reminds us that change takes time. Learning to drink in moderation is a journey. You need to be prepared to explore and find the things that work for you. Sometimes things may not go to plan, so remember to be kind and patient with yourself.

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Transcript

Dru: Hello, I'm Dru Jaeger, and welcome to the Club Soda podcast. Club Soda is all about helping you to drink more mindfully and live well. While there are lots of us in a Club Soda community who go alcohol free, there are equally loads of us who moderate our drinking. In Club Soda, there's a place for everyone. Whether you're cutting down taking a break from drinking or stopping for good, there's no one way to change your drinking. And we'll support you to discover what works for you. So in today's podcast, we're revisiting an important conversation we had at last summer's festival, about moderation, cutting down and making change work. I'm joined in this discussion by Caitlin Sam and chase to talk about how you can have a good time enjoy a drink and not cross the line. If you want a healthier relationship with alcohol, or thinking about whether moderation might work for you give this a listen, enjoy. Welcome, my name is Drew, I'm one of the cofounders of Club Soda, I want to welcome you to this, I can't believe we're almost at the end. But this is one of the final sessions of the mindful drinking festival. And we are diving into the subject of moderation cutting down taking a break. However it is basically resetting your relationship with alcohol so that it's healthy and adds value to your life. We're going to be live for the next 45 minutes, we would really value your comments, your feedback, whether you're watching us on YouTube or Facebook, feel free to share your thoughts. Have an expert panel to talk you through. So I'm really hoping that we can really dive into the detail of moderation, how it works in practice, and really kind of really kind of set you up to change your drinking in a way that works for you. So that's enough by way of introduction. I wanted to hand over to our guests. To hear a little bit about you. What brings you hear tell us about you and your drinking one. Can we start with you, Chase?

Chase: Oh, first of all, Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, so my name is Chase. I'm from San Francisco, California. I would kind of characterise myself as kind of a typical, typical drinker, from high school up through college was pretty, pretty calm in high school, and then things obviously escalated in university became a pretty pretty, I don't know, experience of binge drinker at that point. And at some point, during my the last couple of years, in my mid 20s, I have found that it's become completely unsustainable. So as I kind of transitioned into the professional world, I'm finding that it was really kind of ruining my life. Even just drinking on the weekends, I wouldn't get back my energy and kind of my, my good mood until late into the next week. And I found that I was spending all of my time hung over or nursing a hangover. It was affecting my life professionally. It was it was impacting my relationships. And it was generally just making me kind of miserable. So I realised at some point, I mean, throughout the process and my entire journey history, I knew that I needed to make a change. But nine months ago, I decided to make some actual changes. And so the last nine months have made a lot of growth. And I'm very grateful for all of these experiences now.
So what is so what is what is your drinking look like? Now? Chase, how would you describe it?
So now I drink very infrequently. I drink I don't I only drink in like social occasions. Um, I would say if the quantify it maybe maybe two or three times a month. But I'm finding that my drinking is steadily trending down situations where, you know, even four or five months ago, I would probably have a drink or two now. I'm just not. I'm not having the urges. I'm not having the, you know, the necessity to do that. So I'm consistently trending down. Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at right now.

Dru: Okay, cool. And Caitlin, how about you tell us about you and what brings you here and even you're drinking?

Caitlin: Such a fun question. Sunday morning. So I'm Canadian, and my name is Caitlin. And on the bottom of the screen, I'm redefining sobriety. I didn't put it in that next to my name. But um, so I am a Canadian and live in Mexico. I've been living here for eight years. And I started drinking quite young in my teens. And I would say right from the beginning, it was pretty problematic, definitely binge drinking a lot. And then it turned into also drinking and using a lot of drugs, which carried through most of my 20s. But it's interesting because even though there was brief times where I tried periods of sobriety, I still think I focused more on the harms that I thought were associated with the drugs and not so much with the alcohol and then I was living in Cambodia at the end of my 20s. And that's where I'd say I kind of came the closest to what I would call a bottom, although I didn't really see it that way at the time, but I was in a really stressful job situation, I was also part of the expat community, which was very much a drink hard play hard, everything was available there. You know, when using a lot of different drugs, including illicit and also pharmaceutical, and I was really unhappy and really unhealthy. And I was also drinking every day at a time, like, That was when I was drinking the most. So drinking every day, trying to to online and go to sleep, partying a lot on the weekends. And actually, that's when I moved to Mexico. And I knew a lot of things had to change. And I stopped a lot of the drugs on my way here and threw stuff in the toilet and, and got here, but the alcohol piece was a lot harder for me in a way, you know. And it held on for a while, and I wasn't daily drinking anymore. But I was still I would go out and just have these nights, I would just get away from me. And it was really frustrating. It actually got really hard for me for a while because I was like I can't, I'm so accomplished and otherwise my life, I can figure other things out. But why is this so hard? You know, like, why is it so difficult to heal this part of me and I didn't feel like I was somebody who needed to be abstinent forever. But I started questioning that. And you know, just like, I didn't think I didn't feel like I had a dependency on alcohol. But yet, there was this sort of piece that just was really difficult for me. And eventually, I just got to a point where I woke up one morning, and it was, again, one of those nights where I started innocently enough. I had gone out for dinner with some friends thought it was just gonna be this casual night ended up in a stairwell doing Coke, like not, not the night that I had wanted, and woke up just feeling like it wasn't the worst night but I was just like, felt like shit. And I was really disappointed with myself. And I was that I think was the biggest piece for me it was I was just like, I felt like I was constantly letting myself down. And so in that moment, then I decided, I think something finally clicked. And I was actually studying to be a health coach at the time, which also led to this sort of like disconnect or like dissonance in my life, you know, like, and so, you know, I really started applying a lot of what I was learning. And, you know, that was the beginning of my my journey really about six years ago. And since then, I wrote a book called during class be more how to have a great night and life without getting wasted. I coach people online and I also host retreats now. And my programme has kind of evolved to be called redefining sobriety because I actually worked in harm reduction for a lot of years. And I really do believe that for the most part, we can define our own relationship to a lot of different substances and including alcohol. And at the time, six years ago, that still wasn't a lot of that now. There's It's amazing. There's so many options for people. And I love that there's pretty much different flavours for every person. But at the time when I was seeking support, there really wasn't it wasn't very abstinence only focus. And I didn't really feel like I fit into that at the time.

Dru: Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you, Caitlin. And, Sam, finally, tell us about you What brings you here? And about you and outcome.

Sam: Yeah, thank you for having me. And, yeah, so I would say that, you know, maybe a little different from Jason Caitlin. You know, moderation is not necessarily something that, like, I've really thought about a lot for myself, I've always been a light drinker, I've never, you know, in college, there were times where I would drink too much. But it was never a huge part of my life. But I opened an alcohol free bar getaway last year. And so I've just Well, first of all, I've had a lot of interactions with people who are moderating or trying to moderate or interested in moderation, or struggling with moderation. And, and I also, I think through my interactions with these people in with starting the bar and with, you know, family member who is sober. I've reconsidered a lot of my own drinking habits, even though I was never a heavy drinker. It's definitely caused me to be much more focused on my habits, and what am I doing? Because it's a habit, what am I doing? Because, you know, because I'm bored, rather than, you know, do I really want to have a drink? Or am I having a drink? Because it's just part of the routine. So, you know, I think I have like a, I'm kind of on a different side of this, but, but definitely something I've thought a lot about.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not interesting that so we are following a session with Annie grace, which is going to speak really strongly to people who decide that going alcohol free is going to be the best way forward for them. You know, in that we have this very strong story in our society. Don't be about alcohol consumption that gets completely out of hand, people hitting rock bottom, and then deciding that being alcohol free or sober forever is the only way for But it's really interesting, we all seem to be coming at this story from a slightly different angle, which is about the role that alcohol plays in your life and the extent to which makes you happy in different kinds of ways. And I wonder, do you have any for people who are watching this? Who are maybe right at the beginning of thinking about their relationship with alcohol? Do you have any kind of thoughts on the kind of people for whom moderation is maybe going to work as a strategy? And people who should definitely just kind of not even try and just go sober? Do you get what I mean? Do you have any thoughts on that? The people who are right at the beginning of thinking about this? Is that question for me? are you opening it up? I was throwing it out to anyone. Okay, Samuel speaking. So go ahead.

Sam: Well, okay. Yeah, I guess I washed into that. Well, I was gonna say that, you know, I think, especially in the role that I have of, of serving customers serving guests, who are coming in to get away, you know, we try very hard not to kind of interrogate people on their drinking habits. And, or even make them feel like they have to talk about it if they don't want to that said, a lot of people do come in and, and share their stories with us. And a lot, I would say, a large portion of our audience, you know, our our guests are already non drinkers, either in a or other programmes, you know, but but consciously, seriously, you know, not drinking, and, and then, and then we have a lot of people who are, who are more casually, you know, sober, curious, as they say. And, you know, but anyway, the what's been really interesting to me is the people who come in because they're locals, and they just saw our spot where they saw it on Yelp or something. And they said, Hey, I want to check that out, they drink they come in, they find that they can actually have fun without alcohol. And then they later tell us that it was actually a big part of them cutting back on their alcohol or realising they had a problem. And it doesn't happen a tonne. But there's been a couple cases where that's happened. And it's really exciting to know that by giving them the option, and I think that's, I think that's a big part of it is sometimes people think the only option is to drink. It's such a part of the culture. By realising that, actually, there are options, there are ways to have fun ways to socialise, that don't involve drinking. You know, I think that kind of opens up some doors in a lot of people's minds to saying, Oh, I could I could do this. I can try this.

Dru: Yeah. And so Caitlin, you do a lot of work with individuals who are thinking about changing drinking, do you have any kind of Do you have any kind of guidelines in your own head about the kind of styles of change that we're going to work for certain types of people? What What do you say to that people,

Caitlin: It's actually really important to me, because when I, there are certain people that I can't support with my approach. And it's very important for me that we're a good fit for working together. And so there are a percentage of the population who are people for whom moderation isn't recommended, and would always be a struggle, you know, like maybe in some of those people or my female in my family. So I also am very close to that, like, I know the difference between, you know, how our brain functioning works. And that it's, you know, you might try to moderate, but it's every step of that alcohol, you know, the sip of alcohol is, and that's where the a saying, you know, one might as well be 100, or 1000, or whatever it is, because it triggers that response in your brain. And, and it's something more powerful than your willpower, your you know, whatever your training is, but that's actually a very small percentage of the population. So one of the questions I always ask people, when they come to me first is, well, have you tried taking a break. And I also want to say that I think that people seek out an approach that allows for moderation, because intuitively, they know that it could work for them. And I think people who it's, it's very rare, and there's six years now, or like five and a half that I've been really focusing on this online, it's very, very, very, very rare that I speak to someone who actually isn't a good fit. Because I think our intuition is actually really on point a lot of the time in terms of what kind of treatment we need, and whether or not an approach like this is actually going to work. But one of the first questions I asked people is, you know, have you tried taking a break from alcohol before? How did that go for you? What did you try differently? And a lot of times, I think what happens and why people get defeated, is because they just tried cutting out on alcohol, but they don't try anything else. And I know, Chase can probably speak to this as well that like moderation isn't easy, and it's not a cop out, you know, that there's still a lot of, of retraining, that needs to happen. And it's a big commitment. And I think sometimes people miss that piece, you know, and think, oh, I'll just take cut alcohol out of the picture. I'm going to do a 30 day challenge, I'm going to do whatever. But if nothing changes, nothing changes and all you're doing is taking alcohol out and you haven't actually done the behavioural change, work the healing from the inside out actually changing your brain. And so if people have tried taking a break and they were able to but they Mind at some point, not that they go back to drinking every day. But they go back to again, that cycle of kind of self disappointment of letting themselves down and not showing up as their best self, they find that certain social situations are more challenging than others, because usually really more nuanced. And that's when like, great, we can work together, because it's probably that you just haven't had the right kind of support. And you haven't done the inner work within a safe container to actually change some of these deeply ingrained patterns and habits. And like neural responses, but I know that if you've, if you've been able to moderate in certain circumstances, you actually can moderate and it's not like, you know, I can moderate over here, but not over here. You just haven't learned how to do it in that other situation yet. So that's kind of that's a, you know, it's a more detailed, and obviously a longer conversation than that. But that's generally how my first attraction is when people go when we're deciding if we're a good fit for each other, and also for moderation.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. I'm chasing you. So you run a podcast called moderation. And you've been out speaking to all sorts of experts about how to change your drinking in different ways. What have you gathered from that? Are there any kind of any kind of pearls of wisdom in your own kind of experience about whether moderation might work for somebody or not?

Chase: Yeah, and I just wanted to piggyback on what Caitlin is talking about, I really like that idea of kind of trusting your intuition. That's a really eloquent way of putting it. I mean, just for my own experience, like I was somebody who was only drinking on the weekends, was not drinking, like at night, I was not somebody who likes to drink by myself. So just kind of, yeah, just kind of auditing myself and my kind of emotional makeup. I was like, Yeah, I think I could cut down drastically, but not have the need to abstain from my entire life. Right. So if you know in the future, I'm at a nice restaurant, I wanna have a glass of wine or I'm on the beach, I want to have a beer, I can I can treat myself to that. So I really like that idea of trusting, trusting intuition. Yeah, I mean, I have been lucky enough to have some really good experts on my show, including Laura Willoughby of Club Soda. Um, yeah, and, I mean, I yeah, I really, I really like the idea of kind of, in a nutshell, I think all of them have kind of touched around that like trusting your intuition. If you're somebody who thinks that you can get it done, and you want to give it a shot. It's definitely worth going for. I'm somebody in my own life, I think I can. So I'm kind of on that journey. So yeah, we'll see. Hopefully, I can't,

Dru: I mean, I mean, for myself, so I didn't talk about myself my own drinking at all at the beginning. So apologies for that for exposing you and then not myself. So for so for myself, I've got to I've got some moderation with a really, really slow process, which actually has been caught up a lot with how I've changed as a person generally. And the kinds of ways that I would have previously kind of pretty unthinkingly included alcohol in my life, and then finding different strategies and changing over time. And, um, I was talking to somebody earlier, you know, it's like that my change is like, a slow moving Wes Anderson film compared to, you know, the jump cut of a Quentin Tarantino kind of movie, you know. So it has been like, gradual over time. And it has been a lot about learning what works for me and what doesn't work for me. I think that's a really important thing. One of the challenges that I think that many people burden themselves with unnecessarily when it comes to moderation, is the idea that you have to get it right from day one. You know, that if you if you are trying moderation, and then you do go off the rails, you end up with a stinking hangover, that somehow moderation as a strategy has failed. And that, therefore, you need to be alcohol free. And I wondered, like, for those kind of practical kind of tactics, I wonder whether you had any kind of practical advice about strategies that people can use to get going if they're thinking about moderation, ways in which to actually make it work in practice? Caitlin, any thoughts on that?

Caitlin: Yeah. So what I often talk about with my clients is that we have to approach this with it's essentially what you're saying with curious compassion, you know, and really, it's, it's, it's doing research, because I can't tell you exactly what's going to work for you. And even, you know, look at this call, or this, you know, the four of us on this panel, we all have really different experiences. And so it is, it is a process of of investigation and self inquiry, and you have to kind of be in for it, you know, and and I want to do that, and one of them but also I think that it does, just because you're not choosing abstinence, which kind of gives you this really clearly defined container to be in right it's like, especially even if it's just a 30 day challenge, like no alcohol, 30 days. Those are the rules and want to follow. Have them it's like a box that you've put yourself into. And you, you have to figure out how to make it work if you're going to follow through. I think sometimes also we it with moderation. It's like, what are the rules? You know? And how do I make decisions for myself when I'm trying this out. And I actually do feel like that container is really important, it just might look a bit a little bit different. So what I do, for example, is I support my clients in the beginning, it becomes less necessary as we move along, but in the beginning to come up with their own alcohol agreement with themselves. And it starts Usually, I recommend minimum 30 days, but two months is preferable, because especially because I work with a lot of people who aren't drinking on a daily basis. So you want to kind of have the time to have the different kinds of social situations where the life stressors or triggers or whatever comes up, but it actually really creates that container of Okay, so, you know, what is my weekday going to look like? What is my weekend going to look like? How many drinks Max? What is my sort of point of no return? How do I want if I know that I don't want to get drunk or I know that I don't want to let myself down by not following through on my intentions, well, then, how do I stay on the sober side of that point of no return. And so it actually it's quite detailed. And it's a great an agreement that they come up with with themselves and sign it with themselves and is basically I'm a witness and a guide and the support around them the strategies to follow through. But it does give a structure, because sometimes we really need that structure. And we need to know that, oh, I made this commitment to myself to only drink one week, day, a week, and one day on the weekend. Okay, so now what do I need to do? What's the inner work? What am I strategies? What alternatives Do I need to have in my fridge? You know, what are all the things I need to have in place in order to be able to follow through on that agreement that I have with myself, and I think that's sometimes where the complete break, you know, helps put us at, we need to follow through in certain circumstances. Whereas if we don't have that structure, or those guidelines in the beginning, when we're practising moderation, sometimes it's really easy just to slide back into, into autopilot, or what's habitual. So that's something that I find is really, really helpful in the beginning, again, over time, it doesn't become as necessary. And it's also a living document, you know, I always say, I'm like, You're the one who gets to decide, and we meet every two weeks. So we might sign this agreement for two months. But if you see after two weeks, that it's really not working for you, or there's some really sticky points, or areas that are really you're facing a lot of resistance, great, good information. Let's not be judgmental, about two hours towards ourselves about it, let's just, you know, adjust course, maybe or see what other kinds of support you need. What other alternatives and and all of that, you know, so and then we can keep reassessing as we go along, and then eventually, it doesn't become as necessary anymore.

Dru: Yeah, I'm talking about structure Chase, I know that you've, you've spoken in the past about drinking commandments, I think you called them. And I wondered what your what your approach is now, whether that's evolved for you, or whether you have whether you have rules or strike I like Caitlin's kind of description of structure rather than rules. You know? What, how does that work for you? Practically?

Chase: Yeah, so I'm a teacher. So I do I do like rules. And I do like very like, like clearance, kind of strict guidelines for myself and, and for others. So for me, I kind of experimented with that a bit. And what I have now is I basically called the rule of three. And if I choose to drink in a certain occasion, I'm not going to have more than three drinks, in that, in that occasion, and that day, and that 24 hour period. So this is this has worked well for me, because again, I'm not somebody who has ever had problems with like drinking every day. You know, drinking by myself when I go home, that's not something I ever really did. So that this has worked for me. And, yeah, I mean, I really like that structure, I would recommend for people who are like interested in kind of experimenting with the same thing, to not have maybe just have like one or two rules, you can call them or you can call them guidelines, whatever, whatever you like, not having more than three because I have kind of come across people who are trying moderation. And they have like a list of like 10 rules like and it's crazy, it just leaves way too much room for you know, interpretation, which means grey area, they get confused, and it can be kind of lead them down a path where they end up, you know, getting drunk. So for me the simplicity of just having like one one rule that I that I put in place has been really helpful for me just in my in my own, in my own mind how I function. And I think the important thing is that it hasn't been a lot of work. It's been really easy for me to do that. Just follow my rule. And if I do kind of end up I don't know, kind of breaking it maybe going a little bit over having maybe one too many or having a drink that was too big. It's important for me to not punish myself for that. Do not give myself a consequence before I I was I was like, Okay, if I break my rule, I gotta go home immediately and I gotta go to bed. Because you're, you're in timeout, you're in punishment, you're done. And I found that that was not very productive because that's kind of, you know, putting unnecessary shame into the into the experience. Right. And that's kind of what once you avoid. That's worked for me. It's very clear. Yeah.

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Dru: Yeah, and that's exactly the point, right? It's okay to get it wrong, as you're trying this and seeing what works for you. So I know for myself, you know, my, my approach to moderation started, really, kind of seriously, when I made a big category switch, I was just like, all maybe a drink is going to be alcohol free, or as close to alcohol free as I can get. And I you know, and that, you know, dramatically reduced my alcohol consumption by more than like three quarters. You know, when I looked at everything else I was drinking, Sam is that, you know, that idea of a kind of a category switch or using alcohol free drinks, you know, you run a you run a bar which specialises in this, what kind of role do you think that that has as a moderation strategy for people?

Sam: Yeah, that's an interesting question. And, and this is, you know, I'm going to come back to that, but just a note on the alcohol free beer, an alcohol, free wine and stuff like that, that kind of mimics alcoholic drinks, as opposed to some of the things we serve, which are, which are more fruit based or, you know, or so are sort of based. We often have customers who come in, they tell us they're sober. They tell us they ask us, you know, they asked me if like almost like, Is it okay that I have a non alcoholic beer? And I tell them, I mean, it depends. If you haven't had a drink in years, and you're worried this May, you know, trigger some kind of craving for the drink. I would recommend not having it. It's ultimately up to you. But I think for people who are who are trying to moderate I mean, even for myself, I love the non alcoholic beers that are coming out now. I've never had no duels in my life. Because again, I was not a you know, a drinker who stopped drinking. But and you know, not the basho duels maybe it's delicious. I've never had it but that was always the, you know, that was always people's idea of what at least in America what a non alcoholic beer was. And, and I've just never, you know, it always seemed to me like more of a chore to say I'm going to replace my beard with another tool. So it wasn't a fun thing. Yeah, for sure. Now there's so many cool craft breweries doing non existing craft breweries doing non alcoholic new craft breweries that only do non alcoholic and and there's such a range of flavours and styles. And people always ask me Does it taste like beer? It does taste like beer. I mean, if you're trying to moderate so it doesn't it's okay to have those flavours still you're not worried that you're going to send you on a binge or something. I would say like yeah, that's super helpful even for me, I'll you know, steal some of those drinks from our from our bar and bring them home with me. And like lately I've been trying to McKellar beers. They're awesome. I mean, I would you know, I'll drink those and then not be creating a beer afterwards. And actually, that's one of the tips I wanted to mention that I've heard. I would attribute it to somebody but I forget who I heard it from so I'm sorry if this was this was you but this idea that your first drink of the night be a non alcoholic drinks, and then something more interesting than than water or seltzer or diet soda or whatever. But but a non alcoholic beer non alcoholic wine, non alcoholic spirit or just a mocktail to start with that and say, Okay, do I still want to drink or do that or was that Just trying to socialise, it'd be for me again nine times out of 10. If I have a non alcoholic beer, I don't then go to an alcoholic beer afterwards I kind of say, okay, you know, I had the thing in my hand, I got to drink something I'm, you know, I'm kind of full on the calories like, I'm good, you know? So, so yeah, just in terms like practical tips. I think that's, that's a really good one. If you're, if you're just starting to try to moderate just start with a non alcoholic drink. And then don't beat yourself up if you have, you know, it, whatever happens after that. But it's just a good way to kind of ease your way in.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. Your two non alcoholic drinks? And then you know, if you if that's the thing,

Sam: I think it can snowball just just like alcohol can, right? You could have been an alcoholic, and say that was delicious. I want to try another.

Caitlin: So I love that you brought that up, Sam. And I was actually thinking about really practical things to say on this panel as well. And that was going to be one of mine. That I think it also creates a pattern interrupt of just we sometimes go on to autopilot. And we're so used to going and you were waiting for your table, for example, and I'll let you know, do you want to be by the bar, you want to order a cocktail before your, your dinner, whatever it is, or we just we just automatically order the alcohol that we're used to drinking. And now it's so amazing to that there are so many non alcoholic options, you can actually have something that you really enjoy. And I like that you said not just water, you know, like treat yourself to something that tastes good that you're going to enjoy. And actually that's also what I often recommend them for the second. So do that first and just try that as a as a new rule, the one rule may be I'm going to order something non alcoholic when I go out. And then with your second drink, if you do decide to order something alcohol with alcohol also order another thing that's really yummy, you know, because you're not going to want to let it waste, you're not going to want to let you know a glass of water is easy just to let sit on the table. But if you order another like a second, I often do that. I also am trending downwards, like case that I don't drink very much anymore. And it wasn't you know, it's just been easy for me to not want to. But I often find that if I am going to drink, I'll also order something that's really delicious and non alcoholic. And it just slows down how quickly I'm drinking my glass of wine. You know, it feels like a treat. And I think we also need to make this feel good. And that's why I'm also so grateful for places like the getaway bar and all of the non alcoholic options right now. Because we don't feel like we're in deprivation and humans, like we don't like punishment. We don't, we don't like to feel like we're suffering or missing out on something. And the more it feels like we are, the less likely we're going to stick to our intentions. And so the more this can feel positive and pleasurable, and delicious. You know, whatever you're seeking from the experience, it has to feel good, or you're not gonna want to keep doing it. So treat yourself. Drink the yummy things.

Sam: Yeah, true. Is it? Okay, I know we're gonna get like a little. Okay. So really quick, I just want to piggyback off that what Caitlin said, it's like, I think it's so important that it be that'd be fun and that it not be militaristic. I mean, for some people that may work that kind of cold turkey and for some people might be necessary to have that, depending on where you are with your drinking, to have that cold turkey, you know, I'm not doing this anymore. But I think for many, many people who are concerned about their drinking, it's like it has to be enjoyable, whether that's, you know, whether that's like finding meditation and exercise and all these other things that make you feel good, so that you don't crave the alcohol or whether it's just drinking non alcoholic drinks that are like super delicious. I think it can't be about depriving yourself because for so many people that just causes you to, to kind of, you know, go right back to the bad habits.

Dru: Yeah, well, isn't that isn't that kind of the point in all of this is that whether you're choosing an alcohol based drink or an alcohol free drink, have a drink that you actually enjoy. I was really struck listening to somebody being interviewed on a panel. For anyone who's watching this, who wants to look it up. It was Adrian chiles yesterday afternoon. And he was talking about, you know, he's he's a journalist, he's got pretty well documented struggles with alcohol. He actually did a whole documentary about here in the UK, he talks very openly about moderation and his steps towards it. And he was he was describing imagining every single drink that he'd ever had stretched out, you know, in his life, and he reckon it was probably about four miles worth of alcohol he consumed in his life. And then he was thinking, how many of those drinks did I actually enjoy? You know, and if I if I did nothing else, if I only drank the alcohol that I enjoyed, I would massively reduce the alcohol. And you know, so for me, I'm really I'm really interested in how we can use pleasure and happiness as a way of guiding us to better choices, both in alcohol free drinks and alcoholic drinks, if you're if you're moderating.

Caitlin: Yeah, and to be making that choice, you know, I like that Sam touched on that as well from a place of feeling good, you know, so doing all the other things because I think we're focusing a lot too, on what to actually do in the drinking environment. But of course, so much of this happens, what do you do in the morning? How do you treat yourself? Like, what's your conversation in your head? You know, what self care practices? do you have? How are you showing up for yourself? And, and so if you're taking care of yourself in all of these other ways, it's going to be a lot easier to make that decision from a place of self care. And from feeling really good and really aligned and knowing what my best yes is, knowing what my higher self or whatever you want to call it, you know, how we want to show up, you know, the better me whatever resonates with you, you know, that it's a choice that that person is making, not the stressed out irritated, tired, you know, hungry. Like all the things right, we don't make good decisions when we're under stress, haven't slept well, or hungry, right. And then the cycle continues. And then we read the drink. And because it's the easiest thing, you know, and then we feel bad about ourselves, we don't sleep well. And we wake up feeling you know, and it's like the hamster wheel. So getting off the hamster wheel by all of the other ways we're showing up for ourselves, then helps make better, more pleasure informed choices. Yeah.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know for myself that, if I look at the the times of my drinking is really problematic. It was only really, incidentally to do with alcohol. You know, it was mostly about everything else that was going on in my life. And if I'd been really paying attention to those things, I wouldn't have gotten myself into difficulty. So I just want to I want to ask a really practical question, which is about tolerance for alcohol. And this is just his personal inquiry on my my account, so you can help me out. What I've really noticed, as I've as I've moderated, and as I've kind of been committed to a moderation journey, is that as I'm drinking less, my tolerance for alcohol is going down as well. So I used to say I would have said two years ago, I had a hard two pounds, two point limit, any more than two pints of alcohol and oh, two pints of beer, and I was in trouble. I would say I probably now got a one pint limit, you know that the the amount of alcohol that I can safely drink and be happy and confident myself is really trended downwards? Is that been your experience as well over time? I wonder if any of you know? Yeah, I mean, maybe, Chase, go ahead.

Chase: Sorry about that. Yeah, no, I definitely I completely agree. I mean, I'm somebody who has always kind of been a lightweight, to be honest, which I was in denial about for a very long time, especially in college. But yeah, I've definitely noticed that going without for a long time. And now my tolerance is very low. And which is good, because like we said, earlier, I mean, how many of those drinks are actually going to be pleasurable pleasurable? And for me, the first one is, the second one is, but beyond three, I've really found now, you know, in the last nine months, that no, like the answer is not pleasurable at all. And it's, it's been interesting to find that. Like, I don't I don't miss the feeling of being drunk. I don't miss the feeling of intoxication. Which, you know, 22 year old me would have been like, Well, no, you you love being drunk, you love being intoxicated, and, and partying or whatever. But now reflecting on that, like, I really don't miss that. And that's, that's been a really a revelation. And super healthy, physically and mentally, for me.

Sam: I just wanted to say, I think there's this like, great irony in the fact that in, in heavy drinking culture, like, like college for a lot of us is, you know, the heaviest drinking culture will be in our life. The irony is that there's this, it's like, it's cool to get really fucked up. And it's also cool to have a really high tolerance, which means that you don't get as messed up as quickly. So it's like, what is like, which is, you know, what's the better thing? And, and ironically, it's like, I don't know if this is good or bad, I guess, overall, it's good. But it's like nowadays, I have one cocktail, and I feel it and I'm drunk, you know, like, I mean, I'm not, I'm not wasted, but I feel it for sure. Which I think is only a good thing. I mean, that's only a good thing. Because overall, I'm spending less money, right on those drinks. And, and I'm not putting as many of these, you know, potentially toxic substances into my body, and I'm still getting those pleasurable effects from alcohol, you know, with that one drink. So, you know, I think that definitely, my tolerance has has gone down. And I think that is a point of pride, you know, as opposed to an embarrassment.

Dru: Yeah, I'm wondering whether we just need to make lightweight and proud t shirts to
wear

Caitlin: I would, you know, I was actually just having this conversation yesterday with some friends of mine who have been making kombucha and using me like I love you know, they're brewing and ginger beer and stuff like that. So they keep getting the samples but they decided to make a kind of a fermented wine thing. I don't really know they use yeast and I don't Anyways, they brought it to me. And then they asked me and it was really funny cuz I actually forgot because they'd been bringing me these unmarked bottles. And I've gone home when it like, like one night kind of late from the office. And I also want to like, like I like, it wasn't a big bottle, but I chugged about this much of it. And all of a sudden, I was like, Whoa, like, I felt the effects so fast. And it was the fermented wine, one that they were making. That's kind of like a cleric cauterets the the taste of it like that. It was really good. But then they asked me about it. And they said, What did you think and I was like, I don't know, if I'm the best person to ask, I get tasted good. But I was like, I'm such a lightweight. And I use those words. Like, I'm such a lightweight now that, that my tolerance is so low. So it felt really strong to me. Also, I was, you know, coming home from work, and I hadn't had dinner and it was on an empty stomach. But I said, you know, you might want to test this one out with a few other people who are more, you know, who are looking for more alcoholic beverages. And so that was an experience I had recently with that, and I definitely notice now, you know, for me, one glass of wine feels like a lot, a lot of the time. And like I had a glass of wine last night, and I didn't feel because I drove to drink it really slowly and with dinner and with a limoneira. But like this morning, it was interesting. Like, I was like, going on to this panel. And I have this like, slightly like, I'm just so tuned into it, right. And it's a feeling that I probably lived with so much and didn't even notice was there before. But it's like that slightly dull feeling just right here and like, wow, you know, that happened after this one very long, like drawn out glass of one glass of wine. The other thing, just speaking from a, you know, a female perspective, and this is something I've heard from a lot of my clients too is that culture that you all speak of, of kind of being proud of how much you can drink is so problematic for women, because we don't learn that we metabolise alcohol differently, you know, kind of No, but kind of me, I'm a small person. And now I think about the amount of alcohol that I drank, like, no, like, I No wonder I was borderline alcohol poisoning. So often, because I was keeping up with my male colleagues, which we were supposed to do, you know, or, you know, my friends, and it was as much as a point of pride for men and for women who can keep up with the guys, you know, and it's so damaging. And such an indicator are also just like terrible toxic Max, you know, how toxic masculinity and sort of like the patriarchy in our workplaces affect us in so many ways. And I work with women who are lawyers work with women who are, you know, in professions where that still, like, they're expected to go out and drink finance, you know, all these, like, you know, that's what you do. You go out, you talk with your clients, and you're supposed to drink as much as your male colleagues. And the fact that that still exists, is so problematic on so many levels. And you know, that a lot of women like we just don't know, I think it's starting to be talked about a little bit more now. But I didn't know for a long time that like, not like it was almost Yeah, I thought it was like a deficient like, oh, you're trying to tell me that I'm lesser than because I can't drink as much as the guys that like, no, part of that is like basic biology. But and it's it shouldn't be this deficit, that I somehow can't drink as much alcohol as my as my male colleagues from my male friends. And that that's been a big one for a lot of the women that I work with.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. And but on behalf of men everywhere, well, sorry. Yeah, patriarchy, as well, but you know, recognising. So we're coming up to the end of our time. But anyone who's watching this, I just wonder if you guys have any kind of, and is seriously thinking about moderation as a way of changing their drinking. Do you have any kind of words of encouragement or advice? Or, you know, what's the next step that you think somebody should take? Chase? Yeah,

Chase: I would, I would definitely, I like I really like the idea that recovery, recovery is linear, and that it should be individualised for each person. So like, I mean, for me, and my personal journey, I would say, I am kind of it is just a journey. It is just that. So I don't know, just not as a disclaimer, but I don't pretend to have everything figured out. If I find that my drinking habits if I referred to my past habits, I might have to consider an alcohol free lifestyle. But I like the idea that recovery is linear. So be patient. Don't be too hard on yourself. I believe that any progress forward is is positive and should be celebrated. So for people who are out there who are looking to try to make a change, thinking about it scared to do it. I would definitely give it a shot and Godspeed.

Dru: Awesome, Sam, any final thoughts?

Sam: Two really quick things. One, I think it's kind of obvious but you You know, like, find a creative hobby, just in general, I think it's a really, you know, if you can find something to do with your time that is not, you know, coming home and drinking, like it's gonna, it's not going to feel like a chore to not drink, it's going to feel like something you look forward to. And then I think also to Caitlin's point, like if you're surrounded by people at work, or your friends who are pressuring you to drink. I mean, I think first of all, you got to consider, you know, whether they have your best interest in mind. And I think also, just try to find one person who has successfully moderated and talked to them about it, because I think that kind of mutual support is so important to have in your social sphere.

Dru: Yeah. Caitlin, any final thoughts for me?

Caitlin: Yeah, I mean, I think another thing to mention as well is that, really, this is your choice. And, and there might be people in your life who are saying that you don't have a problem, you don't need to cut back what's you know, and which, again, it sounds as I said, out loud, it sounds like too crazy, like it's really high school, but this exists for adults as well. And really, you I feel like it just collectively, we're being called into our, you know, we need to show up right now, in so many different ways, as our best people, our best humans are most Karen most compassionate, most helpful, most active, you know, selves, and to make decisions that from that place, you know, I think that this is part of our activism, too, is to be to be the best version of ourselves, for ourselves, for our partners, for our families, for our communities for the world. And so what that looks like is, is an individual journey. And the beauty and I'm so excited for this festival. And all the people you've brought together is there are so many options. Like I said, these exist when I started this journey, and it was quite isolating. And if you feel isolated now, I would say that, that might be part of the resistance or the fear, because it's hard to take this stuff, but there are so many people to connect with. There's so many options. There are so many different inspiring people online, there are communities there is that one person, I'm sure if you look for them, like Sam said, you'll find that person, you know, in real life as well. And then once we make a decision, things align for us to help show us people that we might not have paid attention to or notice before, but just know that you're supported, you know, we're here, you're supported energetically and in the universe. Like this is a really good time right now to be making choices for your health. And for our, you know, individual health and collective health. And this is one of them.

Dru: Yeah, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree. A guy's Chase. Caitlin, Sam, thank you so much for joining us for this really fascinating conversation. And for anyone who is who's interested in finding out more about Caitlin's courses, or chases podcast or at some point gets to go to Brooklyn and hang out with Sam and his bar. You would be super welcome and equally and Club Soda. If we can support you to help and change your drinking in a way that helps you live well. We're here for you. Guys, thank you so much.

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