In Conversation with Adrian Chiles

This week we have a fantastic conversation between Geoff Jein and Adrian Chiles about cutting down our alcohol intake.

In Club Soda, when it comes to changing your drinking, three things are important to us:

• First, we don’t tell people how to change - if you want to cut down, take a break or stop drinking, we’ll support you all the way
• Second, we think how much you drink is relatively unimportant - what matters to us is how drinking makes you feel and the impact it has on your life
• And third, we encourage you to measure success on your own terms - we know that change isn’t straightforward and it can take time, and all your steps forward, however small, are worth celebrating

We say all of that because in this week’s podcast, radio and TV presenter Adrian Chiles talks frankly about the challenges and pitfalls of moderating his drinking. We got to know Adrian while he was making his 2018 documentary Drinkers Like Me. By his own admission, Adrian used to be a big drinker, and since then he’s cut down a lot - but some people listening to his story might think he’s still drinking too much. But we’re not holding him or anyone else up as a role model. The only change that matters is the change that works for him. Just like the only change that matters is the change that works for you.

Who is Adrian Chiles?

Adrian Chiles is a writer and television and radio presenter. He has co-presented both The One Show and Daybreak. We first met Adrian while he was filming his documentary Drinkers Like Me, in which he explored his relationship with alcohol, and decided to cut down. Adrian looked into why he and many others don't feel they are dependent on alcohol, but find it almost impossible to enjoy life with it.

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Transcript

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Dru: Hello, hello. Hello. Welcome to the Club Soda podcast. I'm Dru Jaeger. Club Soda is all about helping you live well by being more mindful about drinking. If you want to choose better alcohol free drinks, make connections or discover how to change please podcast is for you. And if you want even more good stuff, come and find us at join Club soda.com if you're based in the UK, Adrian childs doesn't really need an introduction, Adrian so well known radio and TV presenter back in 2018. His documentary drinkers like me saw him take a long hard look at his own drinking habits. And along the way he even spoke to some Club Soda members, which is how we got to know him. In this week's podcast. Adrian's in conversation with radio producer and podcaster Jeff gene talking about the practicalities and challenges of men changing their drinking habits. Here they are.

Geoff: Hello, and welcome to Club Soda as mindful drinking festival. My name is Geoff Jein. I'm a radio producer. And when I turned 40 in January, I decided to take a year off drinking to help I've made a podcast called wet and dry. Where I speak to anyone who can help me decide what sort of a drinker I want to be when my when my 41st birthday rolls around. So far, I've spoken to one of the country's leading hepatologists, a psychiatrist, a head Brewer, and those who've been to the very worst places that alcohol can take you. I'm really excited about my guest today. As a finance student, I don't think I missed an episode of working lunch. He was also the original presenter of the one show he's fronted football on both the BBC and ITV. And you can currently hear him on his five live show on Friday mornings and question time, extra time, all of which is fabulous. but crucially for this discussion, Adrian became the poster boy for middle class moderation after his personal revelations that he regularly drank between 80 and 100 units a week in the 2018 documentary drinkers like me. Hello, Adrian. Hello, hello. I'm very good. Thank you very much. We were just saying before we started this chat that to me, you are the ghost of Christmas future. I've only just started down this journey of working out what sort of drink? I want to be. You're a bit further down the line. So what kind of drinker Are you at the moment?

Adrian: What sort of ebbs and flows if you want, I'm very keen on getting into specifics of units. Because as we all know, everyone's got a different definition of the word moderation. I mean, my dad thinks he's a moderate drinker. And you know what, when he was drinking a lot, I made a mug drinking that day and was a bottle of wine a day, which isn't, you know, we can moderate everybody's book. So I mean, for me, I'm occasionally go below 14 units a week, generally, about 2025 units a week, I'd say. If what I tend to drink, often it gets often it gets lower than that it rarely gets, it rarely gets higher. So I probably have two or three days off. So but it's not. It's it's not perfect. But we one of the challenges as Laura, one of the founders of one of the founders of Club Soda said that, you know, the trouble is, it's always sort of like sobriety, which is clear when you've achieved it. Even if for only one day you've achieved it, you know, you are not drinking with moderation. It's always a work in progress. You know, there is no, there is no particular endpoint, there's no, no, no time, can a teacher come up to you and put a put a badge on you said, Well done, you've won the moderation edge. It's that you know that that is kind of that it's kind of a bad thing, but it's also a good thing in that I suppose, you know, who's to say when you failed as well, and you can't say when you succeeded, you can't say when you failed so it's in this kind of muddy grey area, which is I think, why a lot of people find it so difficult.

Geoff: But and you're you know, you're obviously a clever guy. You I guess knew something was wrong into 2018 you, you're obviously fronting a documentary about the amount that you drink, you must have had a sense that something probably had to change even going into that.

Adrian: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I just, I realised I was drinking too much. And I realised that I was probably dependent on it. And also I looking back, I suddenly realised that I'm drawing more in my 20s, then my teens more in my 30s, then my 20s you know, here was look more in my 50s than then my 40s. And, you know, the only day off I had from drinking was 100. Thursday, was when I was was when I was working late, a show didn't start at 10pm on five live. But I, what I kept telling myself and everyone's got a bob bob, but I haven't got a problem, everyone's allergic loads, but dot dot, dot, here's why. Here's why it shouldn't count against me with me it was I did a lot of exercise. I ate quite healthily, and also never got hangovers. It never had any apparent adverse effect on me, you know, that I could say, at that time, that was a bit myopic, to be fair, to be fair. And also, you know, I had blood tests. So you know, the, you know, you get to a certain age you you know, something's wrong or in when something is wrong, you go for a blood test. And that never showed anything up either. So I was sort of quietly confident there wasn't, there wasn't really that much of a problem. Yes, I should cut down. But look, I'm fine.

Geoff: And I guess one of the things is, when you are quite a big drinker, you're quite popular, I tend to find was your very social drinking habit, you seem to be all people with other people.

Adrian: It was, it's very social. I mean, I rarely drank to excess, uh, you know, at one go, it was most nights I meet my mate, early evening, and we'd have a couple of pints and maybe a glass of wine. At a base level, you know, that that's 25 units a week, you know, something like that, you know, sort of straightaway. So you you add in, say one of those nights goes on a bit, plus, other a Sunday lunch plus a proper night, then you very quickly your north of your north of 50 units. But I think I think I'm more of a social drink. Because when the pubs closed during lockdown, but definitely drank a great deal less. And it's not that I don't have the drink on my Oh, when we might go for but it's never, you know, it's it's never as much. But you know, I would go, you know, I'd go when I was away somewhere, um, my working away, you know, I'd go and go to a pub and sit and have a pint or two and just do whatever work out to do whatever reason I had to do it would you know, then somebody would always come and talk to me because somebody had recognised we've been falling on talking about football or more recently drinking, actually. And, you know, so it was, yeah, it was part of that sort of, it was part of our day.

Geoff: I think we've both got two things that work against us when we're trying to drink less. And that's that we'd both like, the atmosphere of a pub. Yeah. And we both sports fans, how much a Do you think sport and drinking are interlinked?

Adrian: And what I think the watching of sport, is although I mean, if you tend to walk in on the telly, I never really enjoyed going to a pub and watching it. I never really did that much. Because it's, it's kind of too serious for me, I need to sit, sit at home and really focused or, you know, if I'm at a game, but I found myself going through all sorts of all sorts of contortions, you know, I mean, this was pre 2080 to avoid driving to the game. And I was only avoiding driving. So, you know, I could get in the pub, actually early and earlier, you know, sort of 12 half 12 for a three o'clock kickoff. And I think I think the one time you came up, there's a bit of a name drop here, but at one game, Eric Clapton is a big fan of it's a big fan of West Brom and he he he knew one of our players and the friend that we had a Swedish player called Jonas Olson. And Jonah says, I'll come over come over to my box after the game. We're playing Man United. I remember because, you know, Eric had lied to me because I've done a programme about race in football, which he was interested in. And I was I was talking to him. I was talking to him. I didn't even talk to him about drink, but I know his views on I know his views on alcohol. You know, he is committed to Alcoholics Anonymous, and even then I was thinking, Well, I haven't got a problem. I Well, I've got a problem. I'm just every drinker you know, but I was just thinking hang on what what? on that particular day I was thinking what contortions Have I gone to, to organise myself not to dry so I could have a drink, you know, and it was massive, you know, I'd organised to say my parents what I should have done is try to Birmingham from from London where I live, gone to the game and driven back now but in the in my in my keenness to have a drink and actually arranged to stay with my parents that night, driven the car to where they lived, and 50 miles from Birmingham, got the train into near West Brom got in the pub at 12 or one o'clock, then sat there for two hours eating and drinking and carrying on, then went then went to the game, then went to then had this conversation with Eric then went and had a couple more pints then got a train back. And it was just none of this was necessary. And I thought anger isn't leading to this moment. I thought, hang on, you know, just not not waking up in a sharp doorway doesn't mean I don't have some degree of dependency it. You know. So it was it was just a thought that Eric really not that he'd ever do this that he might quiz me about my drinking, I suppose. I was preparing my answers for him when I thought Actually, I better not. Yeah, but I'll go with it because they'll win the argument. So what does a similar home game look for look like for you now? Well, nearly, I'll nearly always drive. And even if I'm not, I won't be quite as desperate to get there so early. So I might have a couple of pints, I've half and half, I'll have half of the half a normal lager and half a soda in the same glass. So it's like Shandy, but maybe the soda. So that's half the unit straightaway. And so and that will be that then I'll drive back after.

Geoff: And this is key because I think this is what people fear when they start off on a journey towards from from where they are to some sort of, you know, mindful future. And I'm aware that there's a certain tautology in this question, but do you enjoy the match any less? Because you've not had the drink? And I'm aware that it's a it's a West Brom game so you're always really a match

Adrian: the match itself? No. Didn't it didn't make any difference? Really? I think that the crack before adapter I wrestle with is all that make a difference to how much you're enjoying yourself? Or does it make a difference to how much you looking forward to it? I think when you're there when you're in it, I don't think it matters whether you're drinking or not, however much you kid yourself because you know, the alcohol is sort of poisoned your mind enough for you to be telling yourself that but I think it's just the prospect of going Oh, great. Again, the probability I have a few drinks when you're actually there. Yeah, as everyone's drinking once you've had the first one I think all the rest is sort of habit Really?

Geoff: What do your what are the guys that you go and watch the football with? What have they made of your journey? Because I'm, I'm as conscious I think of what people think of me as what I'm choosing to drink. I was always slightly afraid that perhaps you just don't get invited out as much. What have they made of your drinking changes

Adrian: I guess some I get a bit bit of steak from some of them for my my stupid chandeliers or what or whatever they call them. But then a couple of them have started you know, they've started drinking the same things to just a little mantra that got into my head one of the producers of the of the documentary said, that sticks in my mind that she said, alcohol is the only drug you have to is the only drug you have to apologise for not taking. And I and that was something I really promised myself after making that film. And that was, and that was, don't, don't ever don't ever bully somebody into drinking but then they don't necessarily want to and don't ever be bullied by anybody else into drinking. So it really doesn't bother me anymore. If I you know, if anyone says ago, they'll say well, I'll just say never called pilot. It's all sort of forgotten. And I think popular pilots have something that looks like be a draft be in a glass is so important to have that available in pulps just just because it just means you don't have to have the conversation you can just get you just get you just get we just get on with it. This is an Alpine lager which they're doing Sam Smith's pub In London, which is 2.7 or something, I just say, what is the answer when I go in? If I'm meeting somebody in the pub, I'll sort of always go in those because that that will do me for the evening. If pints of cold brew, actually, when I got to Croatia, and I'm going next week, in many ways, not the most progressive country possibly. And I was stunned when I, when Deaf Trump started cutting down on when they're for summer, and I was there for two weeks, actually, for the first week. I didn't even bother asking for alcohol free life as an addict. But then not only do they have it, they actually have it at non draft but they have it in ice cold 500 mil bottles, all the big breweries they're all do an alcohol free version. And as a consequence, I barely drank anything, any alcohol or we could you know, got back from the beach sitting by the beach and the hotel or whatever one of those absolutely, absolutely does it for me.

Geoff: I was quite lucky that I started this journey, my birthdays sort of start of January, which is normally a rubbish time to have a birthday. But to start my year of not drinking, obviously, it falls within dry January. And so I really noticed that my local had a an adnams, ghostship naught point five on tap, get a pint of non alcoholic beer and sit with my friends and no one knew any the difference. And then as soon as February 1 rolled around, that came off tap the number of non alcoholic beers in the fridge. I presume they were just put back in the back shelf of a cellar somewhere to get out next January. I absolutely noticed that completely shift. 

Adrian: I agree with you. I went to Spain just before the lockdown. And again, I think you're heightened to noticing all these things. I don't think I went in a bar or restaurant where there wasn't a really good selection of alcohol free beers. I found it really interesting. Actually, the alcohol free section in the supermarket was with the soft drinks. Yeah, and if you think about the layout of a British supermarket, the alcohol free is a kind of apologetic section at the end of the alcohol aisle. Here they were just offering them as a non alcoholic soft drink. It's just something that people drink. Which I found really interesting with what you
just it's interest. I had some I had Amazon deliver some earnings. I was awake somewhere. It's just until you know taking a crate with me, but I'm going to deliver where I was staying. I couldn't provide any ID that I was over at to buy alcohol free beer. I mean, the poor lad he had, you know, he said, God, I know it's ridiculous. But you know, I could have come down on a slide a tonne of bricks if we don't, you know, if we don't get you know, if we don't actually physically see proof and take pictures of it. But only the last time Amazon's voices stupid rule they've got like you buy alcohol free beer in the supermarket at the automated checkout. You've got to call somebody over to authorise that you've looked over 25 Yeah, in order to buy something without alcoholic? I don't know. You know, I don't know why that. You know, I don't know why that is. But in terms of in terms of being in pubs, like you said, I think the critical question is, why does that ghost ship go off? Why does the draft go shit? What does that disappear? At the end of dry January? Why don't they do draft beer now? Is it because they don't do the volume? Generally, so they can't sell it? Or is there something more nefarious going on? They're frightened if they don't offer it, if people drink too much of that, they will see through almost the lie of of alcohol or beer with alcohol in that it actually doesn't make any difference whether you drink it or not.

Geoff: Um, this quick opportunity to invite people to send us in their their questions. If you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook, there should be an opportunity to leave a comment next to the screen. We're specially keen to hear from you if you've got a strategy that you've used to drink less both Adrian, and I would love to know what it is mainly so we can steal them and incorporate them into our lives. So yeah, send us send us those in.

Adrian: I'm sorry, in terms of what you're wanting to change. Sorry to interrupt. I think the I think the labelling is really important. And you know, I think we possibly moving in that direction from what the Prime Minister has been banging on about in terms of calories and stuff. But people still don't really know what a unit is. A lot of people still don't really know what it is and it just seems to me that on on the on the the with the We got a draft beer on the tap or whatever you want to call it. There's absolutely no reason that on there it can't say how many calories in that and a pint of that fluid. And how many units that are in a pie that that would seem. That would seem to me to be, you know, absolutely essential that you've done a start forcing restaurants support calorie counts on the menus, then, surely they that's got to start. So I'm going on the drinks as well.

Geoff: I came across a really confusing drink, which is one of my biggest followings of the first six months. This is a product done by a distillery in South London called Heymans, who understood, they do something called a small gin. And it is exactly the same ABV as their regular jeans, it's 42%. So on the surface value, it's not a non drinkers product. But what they've done is they've massively over flavoured it. So instead of having, you know, 25, or 50 mil serve, you have a thimble full, you have a five mil serving in a gin and tonic, so your units that you're drinking in a tall glass of gin and tonic is actually naught point two. Now, to me, that's a brilliant product that nobody understands. Because what they see on the front of the bottle is 40% ABV. That looks like any other gin, they don't, I completely agree with you there is a disconnect between ABV, which you see in pubs quite a lot, you'll see a long list of our guest ales this month and 5.6%. But what that actually relates to as a unit is, is completely baffling. We are starting to get in some questions. So I'm just gonna take this opportunity to ask a few of these. There's one here, I can see your names just for the sake of anonymity. I'm just going to ask the questions. So interesting, so fast as this. Was there any activating events that led to Adrian going forward and making the programme and examining his own drinking?

Adrian: Well, there were, there were, there were several, several little ones. And he thought, I mean, you got to understand what it takes to make a television programme I can, I can want to make as many TV programmes as I like is getting them commissioned is another matter. So a, so Was there any event that led me to want to make the programme and then persuade the BBC to give us the funds to make the programme? I would say, there were a couple of things that I that happened or little things that were sent to me that I then used in the commissioning process. So that's what persuaded them, that there was something what i was i was saying, it's a very long winded, garbled attic. The short answer is yes, there were several things. The slightly longer answer is I'll give you two of them one really good friend of mine, about the same age as me big drink I've known for years. And when I stopped drinking once for let me her saying to me, said oh, you know, without drinking, you know, the world's of any beige place for me. And I just, it was a lovely day, and I was looking at the sky and I was looking at the trees, I thought nanites Now I'm not having that. That's mad. That's mad. If the drink if you if the drink is telling you that if you're telling yourself that the world is bathed without drink, then you are in the grip, of some kind of have some kind of addiction or dependence. You know, the drink is poisoned your brain to that point. And I have felt exactly that. I felt you know, I've realised subconsciously that is what I was, I was thinking and the other. The other thing that happened was I was I was with Frank Skinner. And we'd met for who's very close friend of mine, and we then he's a recovering alcoholic. You haven't touched a drug for nearly 30 years. And we've met we were talking about this kind of issue. when we'd met, we'd met for dinner somewhere. And I and I said, my worry is that I said, let's say right, the my 100 of my closest friends were gathered in a in a, you know, in a restaurant or bar across the road to celebrate something with me. I said, the fact is, I would be looking forward to that a lot less if I was told that I couldn't drink that. And he was which I think to me just perfect common sense. But he was absolutely aghast. He said, Do you really feel like that said yeah, yeah. I just can't believe you're talking about even though social people I know. Why would it make any difference? And then I thought yeah. Rami that sound. Yeah, that's, you know, that's interesting. And it was all these little things to say, you know, I'm probably more dependent on alcohol. Then Then I thought I was

Dru: Hello again, it's me drew just wanted to remind you about Club Soda has monthly alcohol free drink selections, our discovery box and our wine club box. If you're changing your drinking alcohol free drinks are a great choice. And many people find that they can really help when you're cutting down, taking a break from drinking or quitting drinking for good. With our discovery box, you can try a selection of seasonal specials, new releases and old favourites for just 2499. This curated box will be chosen by Club Soda co founder Laura and our drinks writer and industry expert Ania. In addition to this, we're hosting a live tasting event every second Monday of the month, so you can share your experiences and get our recommendations for the drinks you'll love. And then there's our wine club box. Choosing alcohol free wine is tricky, but our curated box makes it easy. For just 2999 a month, you'll get our choice of the best alcohol free wines and wine alternatives. The box is built by Laura in collaboration with Christine Parkinson, Christine is the multi award winning former group head of wine for Pakistan and co founder of drinks consultancy brimful drinks, so she knows a thing or two about choosing wine. And she'll be joining Laura for a live wine tasting every fourth Monday of the month. For more information visit join Club soda.com to sign up for our regular email newsletter by the box drinker box.

Adrian: One of the questions we asked in a recent drinking survey was would you look forward to an evening less? If you found out one of your friends was not going to be drinking? So this is this isn't less about you as the non drinker but more about people around you. More than half of the people who replied so yes, they would look forward to an evening less if one of their friends announced they weren't going to drink. And I think that that speaks to those fears that, you know, if you don't drink, actually, everybody's going to enjoy the evening. That's not just you. And that's a terrible thing. I think we're quite lucky. I think you know, you and I have both reasonably confident people. And I don't
think I still feel like that though. I would still I would if I was honest. Despite myself and even knowing it was absurd. I probably couldn't help but feel that same way.
Thoroughly that, you know,

Geoff: some strategies starting to come in here one says my strategy was daily walks, meditation, and yoga. Without giving too much away, I can see that that's come from a woman. Do you think there's a difference between men and women when it comes to sobriety and moderation?

Adrian: Probably, probably not. I think I get into these generalisations of men and women but I think maybe the differences in what you drink. I think another thing why and it's kind of hard cut down in the sense that I'm all about measuring quantities. So with beer, you normally know where you're at, with why if you keep pouring it, you know, there's no one standard size of glass and so on. Also, you know, you've got a bottle of wine at home. This is thing you got to finish it. We don't get that if you drink in like cans of beer. Yeah, so I think that will probably Yeah, I think I think there's that difference, but i don't i don't think now i don't think that is I don't think that's I think that's necessarily I don't know, geographic wind is harder to deal with then then then a lot of beer I would have thought

Geoff: well on that point is another comment here that says my strategy is alcohol free beer through and through. No need for booze with such top quality alcohol free beers. Now I've read a piece that you wrote in The Guardian last year about some of your favourite alcohol free beers. Yeah. How did you incorporate those into your habits?

Adrian: What at home it's more or less, it's more or less all or drink alcohol free beer I thought it was a Fanta Lee Mack who's given up drinking completely. a comedian feels very strongly about it. But he was saying when he was cutting down he said one of the key things he did he made his first two drinks alcohol free. When he went out he really made making put in two bottles of Beck's blue and a pint glass or whatever. So the first two pints will be alcohol free. We said by the time we got to the end of those two. He just thought well, wait, I am having a perfectly normal time. Why would I start drinking beer now? You know so. So the fact that somebody said so the other day and I'm really impressed Share your thoughts on this. And it kind of stopped me in my tracks. Because I think that the my key strategy and I think what works with most people is this idea which I first heard the words come from Laura's math actually was about mindful drinking, about working out which drinks he is you want, or need or enjoy. Now I know it's about you're not not supposed to need a drink, right? But anyway, if you can just isolate it to those, then I think you'll be fine. Because we'll give an example a bloke came to me at West Brom, not longer, not long after I'd done the programme. And he goes, go talk to you. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I drink 40 pints of lager now, guys. 50 points and lager a week, using us too much. And ludicrously I started adopting the kind of kindly GPS. Well, I mean, you might consider cutting down a loon and all that stuff. And in the end, I won't actually, let me put it like this to you, right? If you drink all those 50 points, and you love the boats of every single one of them. Right? Do you really enjoy every single one?
And

Geoff: I say, Well, do you anyway, fair point. So if you can just isolate the ones that you really want, need or enjoy and stick to them somehow, I think that's the key. But there's a bee bot, which I'll come to in a second. So I mean, the what I've worked on the back of an envelope during making that programme, that if you put all the drinks I've drunk in my life, since I was 15. In a lie, it'd be about four miles long. Right? And I thought, well, that's obviously bad. You think of all that flushing through your system? But what if, how many of those? How many of those? How many of those drinks? Do I really? How many of those Do I really, you know, really want need or enjoy? And the the I don't think it was a third? Yeah, I need to get to I got just got to get to the key point. And I was saying this to somebody the other day, and it was a psychologist. And I will say in that, I think the issue is, is that the first dream we have to change it achieve some change of state, that first drink in the evening. And I came to think of all subsequent drinks, really, are some kind of subconscious attempt to recreate the change of state that that first one or four Did you. But in fact, that's fruitless. Because the, you know, the change of state achieved by drinking a fourth drink compared to a third drink is negligible. But then this, this, psychologists are starting to say, yeah, that works. But what if the change of state you wish to achieve is oblivion? What if you're drinking for oblivion? Then I don't know what you do then. Because plainly moderation is then pointless. Because if you if you are held self achieving Oblivion, then modern drinks aren't gonna do it for me. You know, I don't I never want to achieve oblivion. But what I do want to achieve is that slight change of state in which a lot less alcohol can achieve that.

Geoff: Yes, I mean, to your point about the those occasion drinks, Matt to who I present my podcast with. In the first few episodes, I think he was adamant on changing my mind and getting me back in the park. And he was describing all those special beers that I was going to deprive myself of, you know, and he, he sort of ran through a full list that that first beer when you arrive at your holiday destination, either all of those, you know, the pub garden on a sunny day, you could have deprive yourself of those and he kept listing them off. I get but that's about 12 beers a year. Those aren't the problem ones. Yeah, it's all of the others. That's the problem that first drink when you get to on holiday and you sat around the pool. I agree. That's a fantastic drink. And I look forward to having it again. The six that I had after it though, they're sort of surplus to requirements.

Adrian: A friend of mine has serious dependence issue of camera man at the BBC and he told me he would find the death about going through a but went and he said something he had in that first meeting I thought was really interesting. The woman said, you know it's getting he was it was summertime he said like it's really hot now. And you just thinking of going to the, you know, your image you've got in your mind is going to that pup guard and seeing the pile lager, seeing it with you know, the condensation on the side and ice cold. That's the image you've got what Forget about that image have the image in your head of the half drunk. fourth or fifth pints of lager or glass of wine, which is all a bit smudged. There's wasps buzzing around it gets the old Chris Paki that that image in your mind. I thought god that's so right, you know, you know just sort of reframe it a bit you don't get those images on the advertising you know what I mean?

Geoff: is in fact you don't get any way you don't get any negative images or the advertising that's another that's another story. So obviously in your documentary you know there there was some talk of you know, future psoriasis and and all of these things or some way down the line and I think they're hard to imagine Have you had any material benefits from drinking less anything you can actually point people to and go oh, my life is better in this way because I drink that

Adrian: Yeah, I am more focused on less tired you know, the maladies you know, the middle age maladies or some from anywhere like, you know, anxiety, depression, hypertension, or reflux, all those things, those are all much easier. Those are all those have all been eased by by drinking by drinking less. Also, I do genuinely enjoy the drinks. I enjoy the drinks I do have that much more you know, I tend to value them a bit more but this can only come from slavish Lee to my mind slavish and counting units. It's tedious. You know, it's it's, it's the district boring, people think you're stupid doing it, you know, but you, for me, I have to do it to keep myself honest, you know, so I look back, but on Wednesday night, I had a bit of a hiccup I went, you know, where I saw some friends I've seen since before lockdown, the four of us went out a lot of time for 11 o'clock, but I you know, I drank I drank an awful lot. And, and the fact and, you know, when the reckoning came in the morning, I thought, Okay, well, I'll put that down. And just seeing it was, I thought, what did I enjoy all of those, and I thought I identified the drinks that I could have done with that, I think what I'll try and learn from that next time. But also, I'm not going to give the whole thing up now. And so go mad again, tonight and the following night, you know, and I didn't drink anything The following night. And next to nothing than I after that, and I probably won't drink again, I probably won't drink again tonight. So, you know, always assessing where you are, you can only do that if you feel that flippin thing.
So well, that that's really interesting, when we should move on to those strategies. And operating systems is the term that I've been using over the last couple of months. I saw the app that you were using when you made the documentary, and you're sort of going through the next morning and seeing Well actually, I'm drinking drink less think less is the one I use in that scene I did I haven't come across drink less or you drink aware. And I much prefer the drink less luck. But anyway, it's the same same difference.

Geoff: Well tell people about it. Because perhaps there are people who haven't used it, I certainly haven't used an app like that, mainly because I'm I'm at zero at the moment. But next year I might do what's good about it.

Adrian: If I was 01 still use it just for the sheer pleasure. Every day. The following day, you get a reminder, 11 o'clock, and he says filling your diary. At which point, you go, you go back and say well, you work out this many beers I had about this much wine and whatever else. And then you get a little and then you get another little graph bar chart comes up of how much you've drunk on a certain day. And how would you drink over a certain week. And it's me, you just it just reminds you of you know of how you're doing and where you're at? Well, I always advise me and I think this is critical if you're a big drinker, or give yourself at least two weeks carry it on as you are drinking a lot and filling the thing yet. So you've got to whacking great big things on your chart at the top at the beginning of it. So then you can be working your way down from it after that. But it's a good incentive. It's,

Geoff: there's almost a personality that would enjoy that kind of, yeah, daily reminder. For want of a better phrase. I guess it depends whether you're half glass full or half glass empty. Yeah. But do you ever, you know have on a day where you're perhaps on a week where you're over 20 units a week? Do you look at that and feel down that you've let yourself down at all or reminded of where you used to be
reminded where I used to be, I think Okay, did I need to do that? Why was that alright, lesson learned, it's still a lot less than I was before. Let's not, you know, let's not panic. But let's all enjoy getting it down next week. So I can see that the bar charts come down.

Adrian: So I've come across other strategies recently, quite often I see people having a set block of some kind in the week where they don't drink at all. I've seen variations on that where, you know, someone said they have to have a 72 hour period without drinking, it doesn't matter where in the week it comes. But I'll know at the starter week roughly where that's going to be. I've seen people who regularly you know, they don't drink Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, the other days, the week that much as they like. Or there's people who don't drink any two days in a row. Have you come across any of these strategies that you've maybe thought about adopting or that you've liked the sound of,
or I think I've tried them all, at some stage one that does appeal to me, actually, because it's flexible, is have one day on one day off. So say, I started today, say I didn't drink today, I could drink tomorrow. Or say I'm drunk today. I couldn't drink tomorrow. But then let's say, I'm driving today and tomorrow, then I'd have to give myself two days off. Or if I drank today, tomorrow, and the day after I then had to give myself three days off. So you're always you're always in debt or in credit. With that, when when I last started doing that, actually, that was a couple of years ago, what I found myself doing slightly was on the on the days that were drinking days, although Well, I'm not just having one a day drinking day, I might as well, you know, I might as well crack on, which was sort of sub optimal to say to say that. So I just think the proof of the pudding is in what you're drinking over the whole week. What also there's little things that people have said to me that thing about the vagueness that sticks in my mind. And also to remind myself of that I've got another one the other day as a sociologist professor at bath, he will happen to know through using West Brom supporter. And he said, You know, I've found a way to take a drink affects undeserved pedestal in my life. And that's that sticks in my mind that helps me those kinds of thoughts helped me I've got it on this pedestal now. You know, the other things are more important than that, you know, it's not the be all and end all. Come on, get real.

Geoff: But the 13 year old view that's skulking off to the local pub to try and get to Yeah, absolutely. Did already have it on a pedestal.

Adrian: Absolutely. I mean, I think I'm trying to write a book on this subject matter. It's what I've been doing during all of lockdown. And it's been, I've been going through drinking at different stages of my life. And that's what you've just said, is exactly the conclusion I've sort of reached about myself. You know, I think it's a kind of societal thing. You know, it's probably what sort of in your family this this, I don't think the licencing laws help or I wouldn't change them, you know, the lower drinking age rules. But you know, what I remember my dad saying to me, was 1450 is a difficult age now, isn't it, you kind of, you're too young to stay around, but you're not old enough to go to the pub, it was like, when you can get served in pubs and go to pubs, that is, you know, it, you know, it solves a central question in life, which is, what am I going to do? Well, I'm going to the pub, so already was set off as a on a kind of a pedestal. And similarly, you know, with the, you know, I'm sure advertising inveigled its way through, you know, into our minds by that age. And I was thinking of what adverts influenced me. I remember the I we couldn't reach in the parts and other bs cannot reach. You know, I'll just say that's such a powerful message that

Geoff: I mean, I was from from a very young age, I was running around in in my spare shirt with holston pills written on the front of it. Yeah. Yeah. So that that kind of help. If you, I'm conscious of perhaps spoiling the conclusion of your book here. But if you could go back and give that 13 year old any sort of message, what might it be?
Um, I thought long and hard about that. And I just

Adrian: I don't know what he you know, I don't know what it was what it would have been for me at the time. I think everyone everyone would be slightly different if I made a real idiot of myself. But some reason or somebody or somebody who I really respected have been really cold, and said, it's just not cool. What are you doing it for? But all the cool people seem to drink. But that was my, that was my twisted perception of it. What's interesting Actually, I've spoken to, I mean, I know a fair few recovering alcoholics. And I, I've asked them the question you effectively asked me, you could ask you a very sort of heavy drinker, whether they've stopped drinking or still doing it is what intervention could have happened at some point in your life, to have to have made a difference to you. And in all cases, I would have pretty strong recovering alcoholic in the sense that in our, you know, go to aa and stuff, where they are told you it's a disease, you're powerless, etc. And to some extent, they believe that most of them do say, Well, if I'd been told this, at an early age, if adopted said this to me, you know, that might have set me on a different that might have set me on a different path. Now, I was surprised because there's a couple of people in particular, I thought, well, there's nothing that could have been done, because I've got this disease. And that's the end of it, we're going to get any in the end. But no one has yet said that to me. And I'm really sort of exploring that. I mean, I've thought a lot about what I wish doctors had said to me in the past. And I mean, one woman who the woman called Susan Laurie has written a brilliant book called Chuck can't remember from. But if you look up Susan, Lori, la wr IE, I think it is something to sober forever. It's got you'll kill me for forgetting she's been really helpful. And she had to stop completely. But she said, You know, I honestly think if, if, if you're Pro, if I'd say your programme, when I was 25, or 30, I think that would have really made a difference. I look, I'm not claiming that sort of one claim that level of influence. But you know, it was incredibly flattering and incredibly encouraging. Think, by the way, somebody I've just seen, somebody has asked a question here, would you consider doing another programme on alcohol? I absolutely would I've been desperate to do it. And, and, you know, they just can't get anybody interested. There's female, we've done drinking, that. We've covered that issue. Blimey, I mean, my email has been coming along the bottom of the screen, or was one thing sticking back up there just before we go. I'm very keen to hear from anybody I really, really appreciate it any, any kind of advice you've got. I mean, my two questions wouldn't be, you know, how have you managed to moderate however silly, whatever little tricks you've got? Also, what interventions Do you wish you had whether you've stopped drinking completely, or moderate, I suppose, or you're still drinking heavily, whatever, you know, what you wish you'd been told. Or wish you'd understood earlier that might have changed things, I'd be so grateful. If you could get in touch with me, I'd really like to, I'd really like the I'm not getting you to write my book. For me. The book is worthless unless I've got the experiences of other people in as well as my own because everybody is slightly different.

Geoff: And we've got a couple of minutes before, we have to make way I'll just mention it at four o'clock. Alcohol and creativity is the next session. Can you untangle the two joshy I think you and I could probably carry on talking for another hour. Yeah. I've found in my year, I actually had to reset to zero. And I knew that I don't think I could go from where I was drinking to a moderate level without going all the way down first. And that's absolutely been my methodology. I've actually done in the past, I gave up sugar free. And thought I'd adopt the same methodology. I lost about four stone in a year, giving up sugar. I knew that I wouldn't be able to go from, you know, 10 chocolate bars a week to six, I'd go to zero effort. And that's that's worked for me. I've actually found it easier to get to zero than I think I will next year. I think next year is the difficult year.

Adrian" Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because it's a grey area you does involve so much decision making who do I drink with? What do I drink? How is to drink? When do I drink? When do I stop drinking? When do I start? It's exhausting? You know, there's 100 decisions to make a week.
There have been plenty of times this year where I've thought the easiest thing to do would be to sit at zero. And depending on who you speak to, and obviously I'm speaking to a lot of people for this podcast. I'm continually confused. Everybody has a different perspective. Everybody has a different opinion. I'm very easily swayed. I remember when I spoke to Laura from Club Soda completely changed my mind as to where I've been the previous week. That one of the people I've had One drink so far this year was Easter Sunday at a glass of red wine. And it's because I've recorded an interview the previous day. And the person I'd spoken to it completely shifted my mentality back to you know what those special drinks I shouldn't deprive myself
now, how did you feel after you have that? You know, I know I felt you feel brilliant. I've had this class, do you think you hate yourself for argument?
I did, you know, I really enjoyed it. It's a it's a bottle of wine I've had for about six years and wanted to really drink. It was a special occasion bottle. And I had one medium glass of it. It tasted delicious. I was quite happy that I had a lovely Easter Sunday meal with my family. I didn't beat myself up about it. It won't make this year a failure. And I look forward to doing that. On occasions in the future. What I didn't have was the whole bottle. And I didn't really want the whole bottle. I wanted to have a nice glass of red wine with my meal and celebrate Easter. So yeah, it's it's really fascinating. I think we are unfortunately going to have to wrap up this. And well, thank you very much for chatting with us. I also want to thank Laura and the Club Soda team for inviting us both along. I've got six months left to come up with a plan for the second half of my drinking years. I guess I'm halfway on that on wet and dry podcast, and this festival carries on through the rest of the weekend. I've had a look at some of the sessions so far. They are fascinating. So you do get a chance to have a look at those. And I guess Adrian will all be looking out for your book. Okay, well,
thanks very much. And if we've helped me out with it, I'll be very grateful. Just like do get in touch please. I'd love I'd love to hear from you. And honestly, I'm not being lazy. I just wanted to channel the experiences of as many people as I possibly can. Yours is fascinating Jeff and I can just see by the you know the list of names coming up on the side of the screen here making some interesting observations and stuff. I'd love to. I'd love to hear from them too. So very one getting in touch is Adrian dot childs at BTL calm.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. Cheers. Have a good day. Thank you.
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