What is the relationship between alcohol and creativity?

There is a commonly accepted idea that alcohol and creativity come hand in hand. When we look at many creatives who have been in the spotlight over the decades, it isn't uncommon to see problematic drinking habits linked to prolific creative output. In this conversation, creatives share how they changed their drinking, and the things they learned along the way. They all share their fears, and the sense of freedom to create that sobriety brought. We also discussed this recently with Kyle Ambition, a musician who took a break from alcohol and now moderates his consumption. 

Liz Horsman is a songwriter, producer, blogger and sometimes videographer.  Her songwriting and production work feature on albums by artists such as Gabrielle Aplin, Rudimental, Emeli Sande, Rizzle Kicks, JP Cooper and Tom Walker. She hosts this discussion on alcohol and creativity.

Sharon Walters is a London-based artist who creates hand-assembled collages celebrating Black women. The series, entitled 'Seeing Ourselves', explores under-representation in many arenas in particular, the arts and heritage sector and mainstream western media. So often blackness is represented as 'other'.  Sharon provokes an alternative narrative of empowerment.  Each piece is a reaffirmation of the right to ‘take up space’ even when you don’t see yourself in certain settings. Since graduating with a degree in Fine Art from Central St Martins (University of the Arts) in 2011, Sharon has developed her practice and continued her work with community arts organisations and museums, using them as platforms to explore and collaborate with the voices of those who are often unheard. The work encourages us to 'take up space', be seen and create our own spaces.

You may know Chris Hamilton better as Ill Tone, a hip hop artist from Vancouver Island, Canada, where he's also a prominent member of the recovery community. Known for high-energy performances, he's toured in nine countries, appearing on bills with such acts as Tech N9ne, Xzibit, Talib Kweli, Rakim, Maestro Fresh Wes, Snak the Ripper, Merkules and Pete Rock & CL Smooth, among others.  

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Transcript

Dru Jaeger  0:00  
If you want to try alcohol free drinks, but you're unsure where to start Club Soda can help you make better choices. And to make things even easier, we've launched some new subscription boxes so you can get amazing drinks delivered straight to your door trial discovery box with our pick of the best alcohol free drinks around. It's packed with seasonal specials, new releases and some old favourites. And if you love wine, try our wine club box, you can explore the best alcohol free wines and wine alternatives. With each box, you will also get an invite to a monthly online live tasting. So you can learn more about each drink. And we can try these drinks together. So what are you waiting for? Buy the box, drink the box. Cheers.

Liz  0:45  
Hello, Hello, everybody. We are here for the alcohol and creativity mindful drinking festival panel discussion. I'm Liz. And you can see we've got four other awesome folk come to join us to have this chat about alcohol and creativity. So Hi, everybody. Thanks very much for joining us. So first of all, I'm going to introduce everybody so we know who everyone is. So first of all, Janet Devlin, we have who on my screen anyway is just down there below me.

So to say about Janet Janet, rose to fame on X factor in 2011. I was there cheering you on Janet. And she's been she's been making music ever since. And she quit alcohol because it was taking a serious toll on her life and her creativity, which we may hear a bit more about in a bit. And her recent album confessional, which has an accompanying book also charts her journey into sobriety. And then we also have Sharon Sharon Walters who is an award winning mixed media artist from London. She creates handmade collages featuring women of African descent, and your most recent series of pieces. Sharon, which is called seeing ourselves I understand the self portrait is that the one that's behind you at the moment is on exhibition today.

Sharon  2:07  
Yeah, it's on exhibition today. It's the first time it's being sold. Yeah, the addition of five so

Liz  2:14  
fantastic. So that's amazing, really gorgeous. And you quit alcohol 18 months ago, right? I did. Yeah. Okay, great. So, and then we have l tone, aka Chris. And Chris is a Canadian hip hop artist from Vancouver Island. Chris writes and produces own records. And you can check them out on Spotify, which you should because they were kid. Chris talks about his struggles in his music with alcohol. And he gave up 15 months ago. And last but not least, of course, is potash, who is a model and DJ and fitness instructor. And Kat ash also has her own clothing range, which is called who's Jordan again. And she gave up alcohol two years ago. So Hello, everybody. Okay, so I think I know. And I'm Liz, by the way, I'm a songwriter, and a producer, and I write about alcohol on my blog, the alcohol spell. So we're going to talk about alcohol and creativity, because obviously, everybody here is a professional, creative. We've all given up alcohol. And I guess we share a lot of in common as to why we gave up alcohol. But let's get into that. Now. Let's start with you, Janet, what do you think? In what way was alcohol harming your creativity? Do you think?

Janet  3:35  
Oh, gosh, in lots of ways. So basically, it got to the point where I had to cancel all my writing sessions, because I was not trusted to turn up without being drunk or hungover.

So basically, I stopped me from that part of my life. I also just stopped writing. Because I just, I just didn't want to exist. So I didn't want to write anything. So it just, it just took all of my ability to write away from me, essentially.

Liz  4:07  
Yeah, it's a lot of lot of other people nodding here at the, at the sort of hung over either hung over or drunk sort of catch at the counselling sessions. katashi was sort of nodding at that. Is that something that you identify with as well?

Ashleigh  4:21  
Yeah, absolutely. Being a DJ, sometimes you turn up for a set you set supposed to probably be the open and set at 12. Or maybe the set after the DJ performs, and then the DJ runs late. So then you run late, no alcohol, I think catches up. So drink my drink, it catches up. So if you start drinking early, thinking that your set is going to be at 12, you might be fine. By time you actually do your set, you're going to be drunk and trying to time while you're, you're drunk, not the one First of all, it impairs your vision. So you can't even see that well. So definitely.

Liz  4:49  
Yeah. So it's that kind of thing of not really showing up, isn't it? So you're there but you're not really there. I think that's something that you know, especially if you're hung over, you're not putting your best foot forward. Yeah, you can't, can you? What about you, Chris is that sort of Does that ring bells for you to

Chris  5:05  
definitely ring some bells, I remember trying to play the timing game. So I can have a certain number of drinks before I hop up on stage. And I could never hold myself to that limit. Once I start, I can't stop. And many, many performances were ruined by my inability to control my drinking patterns. So I'd get up, you know, 1015, drinks deep and totally bombed my set in not a good way and feel embarrassed afterwards and have to get up and make up some, you know, Bs lie about why I had, you know, why I was unable to perform the night before. And it put me on bad terms with promoters and booking agents and other artists within the community, the hip hop community where I'm from, and I just didn't want to do that anymore. Eventually, I couldn't handle the workload either. Just as Janet was saying, like, you know, I manage myself as an artist, I produce my own songs, I engineer them, I write them, and you know, all those things throughout the day that have to align for me to be successful at what I do, I can no longer handle the workload and the amount of tasks that I had to complete throughout the day. So basically, every facet of it was ruined by by my alcoholism.

Liz  6:21  
I really, I really heard that actually. And something that Sharon said to me, we were talking the other day about this was just Sharon, how much creativity how much more productive you've been. So you've given up any you know, that's what Chris was just saying, you know, as an artist, when you're doing so much yourself, you kind of don't have the time when you're also drinking, do you,

Sharon  6:44  
I before making the series, I wasn't really creating at all. So I am a mom of two, I was focusing on being a mum. And I was also working for a museum, and coordinating community engagement programmes. But my, my life wasn't recreated in the way I've always wanted it to be. So it was, I feel to say something lifted once I stopped drinking. And I was able to make things a lot more clearly. So within the last two and a half years, I've created over 250 collages and had a number of exhibitions and talks and workshops and things have just really changed since sobriety.

Liz  7:25  
Yeah, it's amazing. I think it's that sort of thing, also of the regret and the shame of you know, having to explain to everybody why your lay or why you're not there. And just the anxiety I do we all you know who wants to talk on that subject of anxiety and have with with alcohol? Anyone want to pick that one up?

Chris  7:46  
Yeah, so I'll tackle that one there, Liz. So social anxiety is something that has been prominent in my life since I was all throughout youth going through school, going into my early 20s. And I used to think that alcohol would make me this outgoing person that I you know, I wouldn't fear judgement, I wouldn't worry about what people thought of me, as time went on the scale tipped in the other direction. So that thing that made me alcohol that made me so outgoing, was the source of all my dismay, when the next morning I had to wake up and wonder what I said to somebody. You know, if I bombed that show the night before, how many people saw it? Are people going to be talking about it on social media became the source of my social anxiety. So rather than being the substance that I used to curb that feeling, I became the source of it. And so I just didn't want to go through that anymore.

Liz  8:42  
Yeah, it's that negative feedback loop? Isn't it a sort of downward spiral that I think a lot of people can relate to? JANET? How was that sort of? How did that impact your sort of performing? I mean, if you were drinking and hung over how was that for you singing? Um,

Janet  8:59  
well, for me, I even in the midst of my alcoholism, because I am an alcoholic. I'm not. I'm very envious of people who are just like, you know, just living a sober life. But no, I don't have a choice. Like I have to be sober. But for me, I never went on stage drunk. Because I learned my lesson really young that when I sing, I sound like a badass factor addition, as it was told to me many, many times, it's just like, you just kept saying drunk. So I was like, Okay, I'm never gonna do that. But the minute I step off that stage, I'm going to get obliterated and I can't wait. And I would just be so excited to finish the show to smash drinks. And I think I obviously got away with it for so long because it feels part and parcel of the job where it's like, of course, I'm in my teenage years, I'm on tour. I was very lucky the touring with people who weren't addicts or alcoholics but just liked to drink. So we push that bond We created drinking songs, and we drank all the time. So I was living in an environment that was wasn't helping. But I was creating that because I was the artist and I was leading the band. So it was like, I was the person who set the bar as to how much we drank for a tour. Right? Not not the one.

Liz  10:19  
Yeah, and, and it just kind of gets it kind of gets out. Because it seems to be a very sort of music industry. thing. But also creative. The idea that addiction and suffering goes hand in hand with creativity. katashi I know that you were sort of you said this about club culture as well, obviously, it's a big, it's a big drinking place, isn't it?

Ashleigh  10:46  
Yeah, like, um, I feel like what we as kind of creatives overlook, what Elton had mentioned, is that we need to, I guess, be at our, I guess our a game all the time to network because you never know who you might be speaking to next, like who is the next promoter or whatnot. And I recognise when I was sober amongst like a lot of drunk people. I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't know if like, when people are drunk, they could sense like when someone's sober. So they come talk to you or you know, they do funny antics around you or whatnot. But it's about having a good balance. Like I don't feel like my creativity has been has suffered as a result of me not drinking anymore. I feel like it has improved the burn like I better conversations I have the next day with my friends. I feel more in control of myself, like I do get the opposite like ill to and like when I'm drunk, I get really quiet when I'm sober. Like I'm like, Yeah, like pity party, like let's do right, do more. So definitely.

Liz  11:43  
That's interesting. Is, is kind of the other way around from what a lot of people experience, they sort of consider that if they're, if you're drinking, that you can be more yourself. But actually, for those of us who don't drink anymore, I think it's fair to say, most people I speak to who don't drink anymore. So actually, I'm now more myself than I've ever been. So, Sharon, how has the because when we were talking before, we talked about this idea that alcohol and creativity go hand in hand. And you were one of the few people that I've spoken to who said actually, you'd never had thought that it was helping, it was just something that you sort of did out of a habit.

Sharon  12:19  
Yeah, I never ever thought it was helping. I am. I think because I spent how many years Gosh, seven years at art college. And so I focused on art college, but I think going back to what Curtis was talking about, about club culture. I was really into clubs for a really long time. So I think that's where the habit started. I absolutely loved clubbing. I love house music. I still do. But the two kind of went hand in hand, you know, drinking and partying and staying up and but I never really connected alcohol with my creativity. I think since well, definitely. Since I've stopped drinking. Creativity has soared. My confidence has soared. Yeah. That my kind of view on myself and how I feel it my relationships with other people, with my family with friends, everything's changed completely. And I don't feel as though I'm that same person as I was before. But I don't actually have a bad relationship with that person who was before. I mean, that's part of who I was.

Liz  13:23  
Yeah, it's not about looking back and hopefully regretting. But just going well, that's the journey that I've that I've been on and I'm still on a new I'm on a journey still sort of. Yeah. So that kind of leads us on nicely to how it has helped us all to give up alcohol. How Janet, how has it really sort of like pushed your Creator, your music forward, not drinking, and

Janet  13:46  
the differences isn't comparable, like I am able to be present, I'm able to be there in the room, especially performing live, I am present. And as well. Like, I used to think that to make art I had to be in pain, I had to be suffering actively to create that art. And that is the biggest lie I've ever told myself. Because when I quit, I was able to tap into this well of emotion that I put myself through in the past all these horrible feelings and I Kanye as a sober happy person go, Okay, let's let's go to the dark place that we used to be in. And the beauty is I can close that door. I don't have to live in that sadness. And whoever came up with that stereotype of like to be an artist, you have to be sad, or to be creative. You have to be sad and suffering. I wish I could sit them down and say, you know what you did? do that because you mask yourself for so many people.

Liz  14:47  
It's true. It's so true. It's it's kind of it's an excuse mechanism isn't it isn't it's a story that it's one of the stories we tell ourselves and it's just kind of actually Don't you think it's suited? You know, anyone who was drinking a lot to say It's my process. You know, I have to I have to do it's my process. It just suits that doesn't it? It's not it's you say it's a lie.

Janet  15:07  
Oh, we didn't even claim that like, because at least people who've had like, like massive chart success or something, and they go, Oh, this is my process, I have to do this to get it. Number one. Never had a number one. I don't have that excuse.

Sharon  15:24  
It's funny you say that though. Because when I was at art college, they actually told me that my work was too happy at one point. I was literally told that, because the work was so positive, there was a particular piece I created. And because it was so positive, and this was only how many years ago, up 12 years ago, 13 years ago. Because it was so happy they said it, it showed that there was a really dark side. That's and I need it. It's really weird. And I had to explore that side, no one wanted to see the positive stuff. And that's why now I'm really happy that I've got control of what I create. And I'll make stuff that's happy if I want to.

Liz  16:03  
Absolutely, yeah, right. That word connection that everyone has Chris, what do you What's your take on this? Well, I,

Chris  16:10  
I kind of agree with Janet there, I don't have to be stuck in that. That place of darkness. So a lot of my last album that I released was centred around my struggles with alcoholism and chemical dependency. And when I sat down to start writing, after, you know, a year of sobriety, I noticed that a lot of the old pieces of me had come back. So my sense of humour was back when I used to write when I was in my, you know, teenage years, I would write a lot of funny stuff. So I incorporate humour into my lyricism. And that side of me was kind of back. So it wasn't just all, you know, written from a place of darkness, it was, it was written from a place of hope, as well. And so that was one side of me, that came back into the fold. And also, I just have more time and more focus placed upon my artistry, rather than time spent on you know, hiding the fact that I was a heroin alcoholic. So I didn't have to spend half my day on my alcoholism and my routines and rituals surrounding said alcoholism was now time to sit down and focus on on the actual music part of it. So it wasn't just, you know, finding an hour here and there to try to, like, you know, pound out some writing about whatever was on my mind that day, which was whatever depressing subject I was thinking about, I could actually sit down and get right into it right into the creative state and write from a from a place of happiness, and for the record, share, and there's no such thing as being too happy or making arts with too happy

Sharon  17:45  
that guy. Gosh, it's so damaging those kinds of messages, though. They really are. Yeah, totally. No, yeah. Cut.

Ashleigh  17:54  
School like, yeah, just just school, like, I did biochemistry at university. And obviously, now I've taken a 360 turn, but the ridiculousness like I was told at school, and it's almost like, we are the teachers. So this is what you do. And this is what you say, and they get older, and you realise, actually, your teacher friends are the ones who drink the most probably not all, but take the most drugs, and then they go into school, and they come in to tell you what to do. The next day, it's like, excuse kind of thing. But anyway, going back on topic, how it's helped me is, first of all, I think this is one that we all overlook is my skin was way better. Like when I drank I used to get like little, little buttons all over my skin. So that that was one positive. I recognise a lot with the drinking, like if I was upset about something, and I thought, Okay, let me drink to forget about it the next day or so. But trust me, it's coming back. So it doesn't help get over anything that you're experiencing in the past. It's still gonna be there the next day. And also wanted to say that, oh, yeah, with drinking as well. You lose so many days like trying to get sober because even after the next day, when you eat your greasy hamburger or whatever, your fries to soak up the alcohol, you still aren't back to the full cognitive state that you need to be to be present and focused on your craft or whatever you're doing in life. So

Liz  19:08  
yeah, I think that's a really key point, I sort of liken it to having a tooth having a feeling, you go to the dentist and they have to, you know, numb so that they can drill in your tooth, but they don't just numb that bit, your whole face goes numb and you sort of dribbling and you're like this, and that's alcohol, you know, you can have a night but it's not just that night, it's the next morning, possibly the day after that as well. So it does actually affect so much more, doesn't it then just that hour of drinking some just coming to the comments somebody saying here that he or she does I'm not sure who it is. I drink and design most of my patterns whilst drinking for the creative process. But when having to actually do the technical stuff, I have to be straight. However doing meditation, I'm slowly learning how to design without alcohol. And that's really interesting because I I think that was something that I believe that I needed to get myself going with a drink. And I also meditate now in a way that I didn't before. Does anyone else have, you know, meditate or any that sort of thing to help their creative process? Or yoga or anything like that?

Ashleigh  20:19  
Go ahead, Chris. Sorry. I saw you taking that one. Okay, after you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was just gonna say I think with the whole drinking, bringing out creativity thing, it's it's, as all of us kind of agreed on, it's something that we've been forced by that isn't true. I genuinely believe like, understanding like markets and and everything, these big artists that say that they have a number one because they've drunk, it's probably they pushing a certain alcohol brand. It probably isn't true. But you know what I mean?

Liz  20:52  
Yeah, there's definitely that kind of branding thing going on.

Ashleigh  20:57  
Exactly. So I wouldn't take their word for it is basically the end over matter thing, like you tell yourself, every day for 21 days that you agree, you're going to stop believing it, you're going to move in like that, you're going to start adopted at 21 days to make a habit, right? So if you tell yourself like I need to drink to be creative, then you're gonna start believing in God stop being dependent on the alcohol. So it's mind over matter for me. I don't think it's necessary.

Liz  21:23  
Yeah, I think so too. I think I think the sort of meditation side of things. So I meditate every day, and I do yoga now. And I never did that before. When I was drinking. As a drinker, I had never considered that. And I think that for me, it's giving me space in my brain. So I'm sort of switching off all the thinking and that sort of stuff. And that's definitely how I saw alcohol. I used to see alcohol as something that would switch off all of the stuff that I thought was extra that I didn't need, so that I could just focus on the songwriting. And that's, you know, that's obviously now I realised that that really wasn't necessary that actually, I could create that space without alcohol.

Laura Willoughby  22:03  
So Christine, we've got our first wine tasting happening on the 28th of June as part of our brand new wine club. Why are we doing this? There isn't any good wine, right?

Unknown Speaker  22:17  
Well, there didn't used to be. But now there really is, it's got so exciting. I can't wait to taste some of the new things coming out. But I think trying some of the great new products and looking at how they work as wines, and also some of the things that are not quite alcohol free wine, but work in the same way. Yeah, cuz

Laura Willoughby  22:39  
we've definitely got on the next list binary botanical, which is actually described as the beer for wine lovers. So that will be interesting for people to have a go at.

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
Yeah, definitely. I think the wine world is in for a shock, actually, that there are quite a lot of products out there, which are going to work for wine drinkers better than some wines do.

Laura Willoughby  23:04  
Yeah. And I think we'll be able to bring all of those along with some wines. And I think in our first box, we've got a red, a white, a rose a and then we've got something. It's a bit like our wild card is now I get excited about those. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  23:19  
yeah. Yeah, I think there are going to be some surprises, because things have moved on tremendously in the last year or so. And there are some really delicious products there. And actually, some of the, you know, the wine producers are starting to catch up. But it's, you know, it's very difficult to take the alcohol out of the wine and make it taste great. So I think some of these new products that we're going to be trying are really raising the stakes for the wine producers. So it's gonna be a very interesting journey.

Laura Willoughby  23:56  
So I'm doing a tasting with you, Christine, because I'm a wine novice, and I don't know very much. So I'm going to ask all the questions that our listeners will want to hear the answer to, but why are you an expert, Christine? Well, I, I want to if you're like a wine expert, I was a wine buyer head of wine for an international restaurant company for 18 years. And I did a huge project on non alcoholic drinks a few years ago to try and make them available in our in our restaurants. And it was a bit of a shock when I realised what the situation was with wine. And it's been a mission of mine ever since to find the good stuff to go in my wine glass. So I'm determined to prove that there are some drinks that you'd really want to have and have with food and, you know, pop the cork on and enjoy. Absolutely and people won't know that. how thrilled I am that you agreed to do this wine tasting session with me. I'm very privileged, very honoured and I know that everyone's going to get some great tips and advice and from you, and we're going to be able to raise the game for alcohol free wine in the UK. Yeah. So if anyone wants to join us, you can buy the box now from wise bartender on subscription for our monthly Wine Club. It's just £29.99 a month for the box. And our first tasting is on the 28th of June at 7pm. But even if you can't come along to live tasting, you'll be able to watch it again. So if you go to wise bartender, or you just go to join Club soda.com forward slash event, you'll be able to see everything and order your box and sign up for the event.

Liz  25:48  
So So what do we kind of advise to people who are using alcohol as part of their creative process? And maybe recognise it? Isn't that useful? You know, what would you say to those people? Sharon, what would you say to somebody who was maybe thinking about giving up,

Sharon  26:04  
I'd say you can do it without alcohol, and to just give yourself a chance, just trying, even if it's just for a few days to start off with, I remember when I wasn't creating at all, I would just, I would just give myself maybe 15 minutes of creativity a day just to get myself started. And then that built up to being high. Remember, at one point, I was working on stuff after work for up to six hours in the evening, every night, and I just realised that I was filling my time that I would have been having a drink, or two or three, I was filling that time with alcohol when I could have been creating, and I just thought I never ever had the time to do it. But I think quite often we can stand in our own way. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but I do believe that can happen. And I feel that I stood in my own way for a really long time. And I'm glad I've pushed the alcohol aside and doing what I've always wanted to to do.

Liz  27:00  
In what way do you think that we stand in our own way? What's the sort of what are the actual manifestations of that?

Sharon  27:06  
I think thinking that you don't have enough time. So I thought that I couldn't create because I didn't have an artist studio. You know, I kind of envisage that I would one day have this amazing studio. And I now have that studio, this is what I'm sitting in, and it's in my own house. And I kind of was thinking oh, I don't have a studio, I don't have this space, but I have to pay monthly. I don't, I can't because I've got two children. And I'm really busy. I can't create because I work at museum and I'm super busy with that. I've got all these other things, I want to socialise with my friends and I won't want to go out, there was so many reasons why I couldn't do what I've always wanted to do. And now I'm doing it. So my advice is to, to give yourself a chance to really to see the ways that you can create the life that you actually want. Yeah, but maybe not in the ways that you're always imagining those those those ways are right here. I think sometimes

Liz  28:01  
Yeah, it's the excuses. The the sort of stories we tell ourselves it goes. Excuse again, what other excuses have people told themselves about why they can't do what they want to do? Because I'm just Well, I haven't got this or I haven't got that. And actually, it's easier just to have a drink. Anyone else kind of relate to that sort of that idea? That way of thinking, Janet,

Janet  28:22  
I think it's more when I hear people say, Oh, I'd love to write, I'd love to be in the studio. I'd love to do that. Or I don't even just do poems. I'm like, they're like, I don't have the time. I don't have the time of my time is fully occupied. I'm like, excuse me. Were you always on Friday night? Yeah, I'm pretty sure you drank enough to take yourself out for not only Saturday, but Sunday to some good time that you didn't have. But yeah, that's a good,

Liz  28:50  
that's a good 24 hours right there, isn't it?

Janet  28:53  
Yeah, that's what as well, like, I feel like people, I think more so not everyone has an issue with alcohol. And I think it's more so when it comes down to it's really just asking yourself, why is alcohol a part of your creative process? Is it negatively impacting your negative? Or your creative process? Really trying to sit down and be honest with yourself and your answers? You know, because it's not quite it's not for everybody. And I understand that. And I feel like, you know, in recovery, sometimes I feel like I'm perpetuating this, like, I don't drink so you shouldn't. But yeah, I think most people who quit alcohol even for a short period of time, because maybe you just have a project that might take you three months, you know, quit for the three months, see how you feel, you'll notice you have your weekends, but you'll notice you have time. So you also get to create all the art that you want to make. also have some people time, because I feel like we use all of our spare time as artists, and they don't have any time for ourselves. Or as I feel when you remove out the hall. You're actually having some real one on one time. Now. I I'm going to drink and avoid myself my problems that everything is going on in my life, and then we're just gonna float on by.

Liz  30:07  
Yeah, it's so true. It's scheduling that time for yourself. Actually, I think I personally feel that's quite a good, good way to be. But yeah, time as a sort of no time as an excuse for not creating is not really, it's just that it's an excuse. I think you said to me the other day, Janet, that we've all got the same amount of hours as Beyonce has got. So you know, no excuse. So anyone else want to sort of talk on this kind of like the excuses we tell ourselves as to why we can't just get down? Yeah, annoys me.

Chris  30:38  
Oh, yeah, the absolute the amount of time that I've poured into my alcoholism, I mean, it's enough, it's enough time to create a million albums, you know, front to back. And yeah, I would make every excuse in the book to just like, share, and I, I need more equipment, I can't afford it right now. Meanwhile, I'm going to the liquor store and pouring my money into you know, my my disease. And like, Janet, I should say, I'm also I also identify as an alcoholic and go to, you know, a meetings and consider myself to be in recovery. But the amount of time that I poured into my, my illness there, you know, it's just a harrowing to say the least. So I would make up those excuses as well. All you know, this album just took me six months to a year to make, but like, oh, whoa, it's me. But how much of that six months to a year was I actually drinking and partying for? Yeah, it would be, you know, not only Friday night, but I'd continue right into Saturday night, and then, you know, take Sunday and Monday to recover and shirk all work related endeavours for that time for that period of time as well. So there's always time, I mean, we can make time, it's just a question of balance, which can be very tough, you know, I keep up, keep a pretty regimented schedule now. And that's important for me to do, being in recovery, it is something that I recommend, if you are trying to cut it out completely. Just think, you know, point form less and stick to them and don't have, you know, alcohol on that list. Yeah. And

Liz  32:08  
I think you said that, that kind of you have a list of things that you tick off that you make sure you get done, and you're actually being you're taking responsibility for your own time. And I think that's a very big part of, of getting stuff done. Right. And somebody has commented here about asking that they would be interested to know about why everyone's given up alcohol. Was it necessity, or choice? Jana and Chris, have just sort of spoken on that a little bit there. Sharon, for you, did you feel that you had to give up alcohol or you just really wanted to see what happened?

Sharon  32:41  
I don't, I didn't feel as though I needed to give up alcohol. I don't know if that's a bit of a silly kind of reflection or not. But I basically what happened was I went into a really strict regime of learning to run from nought to 10k within four months, and I remember the woman who was training me, she said to me, you know, we're going to, we're going to work out we're going to exercise on Saturday, we're going to have a session on Saturday. And I was like, Oh, no, I can't do Saturday morning, because I'll be hung over. And I rarely talk about this so openly. But and she said to me, but you realise you don't have to be hung over. I was like, kind of looking at her. Like what are you talking about? It's Friday night. It's Saturday morning. And so if I think about it that way, yes, I probably had to give up. But what had happened is over that period of time, I cut down our call massively because of her amazing influence. And because she was the only person I knew that didn't really drink and I and eventually I just stopped completely because every time I eventually did take a sip of alcohol, I started getting really really bad headaches, like really mad. When the back to the front of my head, my body was just going actually you've had enough now share and it's time to give up. So I So eventually I gave up. So I didn't go into like a recovery programme or anything like that I gradually cut down and then stopped drinking altogether. But drinking was a massive part of who I was massive part of my identity. I my socialising revolved around drinking and meeting up with friends and what we called fizzy Fridays, where we drink after the school pickup. And then we would drink right the way through. And we were quite well known in our little group of friends for doing that. And it wasn't seen as something to look down on. But now I'm really glad that's not part of my life. Because ultimately, it is a problem whether I want to admit it all the time or not.

Liz  34:43  
Yeah, there's different these these problems come in different shapes and sizes don't. And it's not always that clear to us at first, but often looking back I think you can go on that was a bit of a caricature. No, I

Sharon  34:58  
was just gonna say very quickly and kind of That, that idea of having a drink to celebrate, but also having a drink because you're sad, but just basically always having a drink. Because there's always a reason to have that drink. And now I can see that actually, I don't need a drink to celebrate. I can have a drink. I have non alcoholic cocktails all the time. My son makes them but I am. But yeah, it's just a different mindset. Really. It's a different approach to life.

Liz  35:24  
Yeah, yeah. Cats. How about you? What was your sort of? Was it a necessary thing or something? You just thought you try?

Ashleigh  35:32  
Um, first of all, sorry, Sharon. Oh, my gosh, a son that makes you non alcoholic cocktails can be awesome. I saw you drinking. I was like, No, it's not right. It's not right. It's really good. We'll talk. Anyways, yeah. So what happened with me was that university ended. And I was just kind of in this Limbo of like, where do I go? What do I do with my life. So I actually stopped seeing friends for a bit. And then when I did reconnect with my friends, it was like, so I stopped wanting to drink like by myself, because during University, like, every Friday, I would be like, okay, like, let me buy a cider. And then I was gaining weight because of the site and stuff. After university, I got into the fitness and everything because I hadn't seen my friends. Alcohol wasn't like a social norm anymore. So then when I did pick back up with my friends, I realised like, getting drunk and stuff wasn't fun anymore. Like, there's always something happening, some drama, like, we have to stop the party to go look for some person. And so it was just kind of eliminating that. Then I had my grandmother on the other hand, like, my grandmother and I are now getting like really close and I look up to in a way, but she's like, old and she doesn't really have anything to do any day come. So at six o'clock in the morning, when she wakes up, she's just drinking until she gets drunk, and then she knocked herself out. And then I just have that as another reminder, like, okay, you don't want to be like that. And there were so many examples and, and things like that, that were just telling me it's like, you know, when you see that 1111 on your clock, or your watch or whatever, and it's like, okay, the universe is telling me something, like, maybe just cut the alcohol out. So I kind of dipped into it. And then I just kept it. And I'm okay with being the responsible friend on nights out who kind of make sure that makes sure that everyone gets home safe and everything. I'm fine with that. So yeah, the times as they call me, the old lady.

Liz  37:22  
tend to, it's quite, it's quite a novel feeling, isn't it? When you've not been? You've never been responsible to suddenly be the one who actually gets everyone home. It's quite nice. I like it now. So another comment we've got here, which is a really good point, actually. someone saying would love to hear how people manage being an alcohol centred music venues and alcohol sponsored music events. So you know, for everyone here, possibly apart from Sharon, or maybe Sharon, as well, you've had alcohol sponsored events that you've been part of? How do we how do we handle that? Do you have a kind of like, anti alcohol sponsorship stance? Or are you kind of laid back about that? Anyone want to chip in on that?

Chris  38:05  
So I was at I had a performance last night actually, with COVID restrictions in place my new so it was a new ballgame on that front, walking into a bar and having to socially distance from people and having everybody sitting in booth. So that was already odd enough, but it was my first time back in the bar scene since since sobering up. And one thing I used to face as an issue was that I would use alcohol as a crutch, a crutch, sorry. So when I was going throughout my night, anytime I got nervous, I would take a sip, or you know, slam a beer or that became a huge part of my persona as well, as I think Sharon was touching on earlier, it was a big part of my lifestyle and my my image that I projected to others. So last night, I just kept kept the water bottle with me. And every time that I felt that urge, I just took a sip of water instead, you know, it's going to hydrate me and it's not going to get me drunk. So that's a win win as well. I also just made sure because I am in recovery, I had a few recovery people with me. So a lot of my friends here in the nymo in Vancouver Island are from the recovery community. And so those people came you know, not all of them mind you by that some of them came with me to the event so there was a bunch a bunch of us in the in the bar together and having those positive people around me who don't who don't drink. Were a good enough reminder of as to why why I'm not drinking, right. Yeah,

Liz  39:33  
that's great to have a sober crew around you. I think if you can get your sort of sober bubble, whatever people call it, you know, to have those connections even if it's all just people that you meeting and talking to on Instagram or whatever. I've definitely found that a really lovely encouraging aspect of being online in that sober community. What about alcohol sponsorship? anyone got any feelings on being part of its Janet Have you had it? see any of that sort of question music being used for alcohol adverts or anything?

Janet  40:05  
Honestly, I don't really mind like if I got a phone call tomorrow from Smirnoff being like here Can we use your song? I'd be like, yeah, alcohol owes me a paycheck to be honest. Yeah. They might have good ways away from me Yeah, I You owe me Yeah, like but I think just on a general note like my drinking was done in my bedroom on my own. I was a bedroom barstool drinker. So for me, I'm very lucky like, social environments, gigs. venues, festivals weren't my drinking place. So I don't really get triggered by it. Quite frankly. I wish my fans drank more it shows so that I could make the bar you know, look good. They could get their money and want to hire me again. But it's fine I respect that my fans don't drink and I live with that. But yeah,

Liz  40:54  
yeah, so you do you have a kind of like, what's your alternative? Now Janet, for drinking would you do like alcohol free beers? Or what do you like?

Janet  41:02  
No, I someone in recovery, I actively avoid anything that appears like alcohol. I don't want to romanticise booze in my head because it's very different as an alcoholic like I don't drink alcohol free champagne. I don't drink alcohol free. Anything. And I think it was because I remember somebody and early doors to recovery going. But why do you want the alcohol free beer? Yeah. Because, like, feel involved. And I feel like I needed to be here to be a part of that. I feel like you're picking on me now because I really love this.

Liz  41:45  
There's two sides to this coin. Definitely. I'm definitely an alcohol free alternative drinker. I have an alcohol free beer. So I'm with you, Sharon. Totally. It's hard, isn't it? Because I think if you have a beer, and it's you know, it's alcohol free, then yes. Are you programming your brain to say, this is a good thing? And yeah, you're always trying to say is actually no, that's not something I need is I think it comes down to where that where you've come from, if you've come from that place that Janet and Krista talked about, or if it's more sort of let's see what happens. You know, it's different for everyone, isn't it?

Sharon  42:21  
Yeah, I think so. And you know, the funniest thing is I never drank beer before. being sober. hated it. Me too.

And I've been known to art for a alcohol free beer. With lemonade. So basically an alcohol free Shandy. I've got no shame. There you go.

Liz  42:43  
It's weird, isn't it? I would never have had that before. But I've also done that Sharon, happy, okay. Somebody's saying a really good comment here. Part of the problem is that society promotes alcohol as an as an important part of having a good time, advertising alcohol with good times. All you have to do is look at every city and town at closing time. Which is a good point, isn't it? That actually the good time we think that we're all having often just ends up you know, not so good, right? messy. But we are this is kind of why I called my thing the alcohol spell because it feels like you're under that spell. We're all kind of under the illusion that alcohol is serving us somehow. So yeah, this Sorry, go ahead. Okay,

Chris  43:32  
you can head up that. Thanks, Sharon. So why Yeah, what they don't promote is the car accident, the domestic violence that can come from it, the fights and bars between dudes who are peacocking against one another. They don't show all the bad sides of it. So they don't show the guy who can't keep it together and loses his job and thus loses his family as a result of his drinking. So I'm I agree with Janet, I don't think that everybody should have to quit drinking because there's only a you know, certain percentage of the population that has the same issues that I myself might have with you know, getting into automobile wrecks and things like that as a result of my alcoholism. But it doesn't show that side of that where there's a stat that reads that alcohol in North America is is a factor in like something like 80% of violent crimes. That's not the exact stat mind you but something ridiculous like that. You know what I mean? So you're not going to see a Smirnoff advertisement or whatever alcohol company it might be. That list that statistic at the end. They're just going to show you that you go to the nightclub you drink smeared off and then you have these crazy adventures and then you wake up and life is great. I mean, of course they're not going to show that other side of it but there is a darker side just side to it. And like I said, I don't when i when i sobered up, I didn't expect everybody else to get sober on my behalf too. But it would be Nice if there was some more awareness surrounding that, that darker side of it. Yeah, cash was what?

Ashleigh  45:07  
I mean, I think sorry to interject. Yeah, I was gonna say that you don't that side of it because it doesn't make as much profit, doesn't it? Like if someone passes no one, no one really cares i guess the alcohol companies still got their their money, their credits and stuff. But I wanted to touch on I can't remember who had said it but um, when you enter an environment and people are kind of forcing you to drink it does become sort of annoying because you don't force non alcoholic ism on anyone. You don't go up to someone and be like, Oh, you're drinking gin and tonic must be nice. Like you don't do that. But then if if they if they offer you a drink, and you politely decline, they're like, what's wrong with you? Why are you not drinking? Yeah, it's almost like they make you feel ashamed. So and it's like you, you really don't have a long conversation. Arguing with someone who's probably on the tipping scale, you know, will get a lot more generous when they are becoming

Liz  46:02  
a bit drunk is basically what you're saying is it's a one way thing or you know, if you give up alcohol, then you know, you're not judging everyone else necessarily. I think that's really important. No, absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Ashleigh  46:14  
I connect via our differences. So yeah, everybody could do their own thing. And we could all get along and have a great night.

Liz  46:21  
Yeah, exactly. That's it. So look, we've we've kind of like coming to the end of our session. And just to kind of like round it off, I think what we've established is that alcohol and creativity are not really the best of mates. And in actual fact, I think from what everyone said, You're much better doing what you do creative wise, without any alcohol and that you'll have more time. You've got more space in your brain to come up with the ideas and that also your creativity can be a channel for your emotions and feelings so that you will get back in touch with once you've quit alcohol, right. I think everyone's really sort of said that. So thank you so much, everybody for joining us. It's been brilliant. I hope everyone who's been watching has got something out of it. Thanks for all the comments. I'm sorry, we couldn't read them all. But thank you to L tone. Janet Devlin, Qatar and Sharon, for joining us. And yeah, I think we're gonna sign off now. They'll probably just cut us off. Bye, everybody.

Laura Willoughby  47:25  
Nice to meet you. Bye. Bye. This podcast is brought to you by Club Soda. You can find out more about what we do on join Club soda.com and on our social handles at join Club Soda.